Man-at-Arms Desperate call for Nerf

WiremonkeyWiremonkey Senior
edited 4:20PM in PVKII Discussion
Hello friends, knights, pirates, vikings and parrots.

First of all let me start off by saying I love this game. I have been playing pvk 2 for many years since I was first aware of it and there were very few classes. I am thrilled that suddenly (seemingly) life has come back into the game and the servers have once again started to fill up. I think the game is amazing fun, the maps are out of this world and I have an awful lot of fun playing. However, (the dreaded however), as well as casual play I do enjoy the competitive element of gaming, that said I wanted to know if anyone else has found this, or if there are any plans at all to nerf the man at arms class. I mention the competitve element because in certain game types the man-at-arms is almost untouchable and I feel a nerf is desperatley needed.

But why?! I hear you cry, and I will explain. First and foremost I do enjoy the man at arms a lot, I think it's a good class and I see that idea behind him being a faster option for the knights. That said, I feel in trinket wars especially the man at arms is able to run riot if used by a good player and in a one on one situation you will almost never be able to take him out of the equation without help from multiple other players from pirates and vikings teams'. This is, I think, mainly due to his special. Good, even average players have figured out there is an ability to almost 'roll' or 'chain' man at arms specials together one after another and because the effect of his special lasts so long it is almost impossible to get away from. ONce they have used special they can very easily build the bar back up and jump straight into it again leaving all enemies devastated.

The above tactic is almost inevitable on trinket wars so let's run through our options....

1) Block??

This does not really work as Man-At-Arms special blocks your ability to perfect parry and therefore you end up in a defense shell get hammered by his super powerful weapon (and it's crazy long reach) until death or until he has gathered another special to start this off again.

2) Run away??

AAAh if only one could retreat from the spinning, crossbowing polearm reaching wheel of death this is the special state man-at-arms. This is simply not an option. Man at arms is already one of the quickest classes in the game so even in vanilla states, it is almost impossible to run away from him. Not only will he (probably) be much faster than your class, added to this his special slows you down and also speeds him up. EVen if you had a chance you are now trying to run through mud with the murder maniac criting you constantly and ignoring your weak efforts to block.

3) Lash out

Now this seems to be the only half reasonable reply, once in the green mist of death, you cannot run or block so you simply have to try and time when man at arms runs in to hit you and lash out. This is an option when playing those who are new to the game, but playing against good players they figure out they have a huuge reach advantage with the weapon and a huuuge speed advantage whilst in (and out) of special mode so they can manuvere around you and slip in and out like Muhammed Ali in his prime vs you after a long night in T.G.I Friday's. (You are probably going down.)

4) He hasn't used his special - he's nearly finished AAAAAND oh. He's gone.

Another hugely irritating function of cloud of death rocket system special is this. If in the rarest of circumstances you engage a man at arms who isn't using his special on you after initiating a duel you are able to lower him to near death - go you for the killing blow and ,.... BOOM. he hits the gas (literally) and he shoots off. Once again, he is already one of the fastest classes so when is shooting off into the distance jumping and weaving and you are already slowed from the gas there is no chance of catching him up. He will run to heal, use his crossbow once or twice and then boom, he is back in the field chaining specials and killing pretty much everyone with an off the charts k/d ratio.

I would like to know what others think of man-at-arms, specifically in trinket wars and I was wondering if there were any plans to nerf the green mist of doom, it seems awfully unbalanced when compared to the gestirs spear dash, or the sharpshooters pathetic powder bomb. PLEASE PVK GUYS PLEASE HA.

As for how the nerf would work I don't know. For the special I would guess changing it so it hits once, hits a larger area but then doesn't follow the actual man at arms around. Therefore it would be useful in booty games or when near the trinket itself, for example, but then wouldn't surround the actual character creating the almost invunerable state of murder frenzy whereever he may step.

Failing that possibly just nerf his weapons power or his vanilla speed?? These are just ideas but again I implore you, people of PVK2 pleasssssse balance this !

Thanks y'all and see you in game,

Wire Monkey.

Comments

  • MrMohoMrMoho Senior
    edited October 2015
    I do agree with one thing, that the speed at which he regains his special is too fast. Because of the crits from the fart cloud one can build up a special incredibly fast. And since there is still some methane lingering around once the MAA can charge up his special again, he will get loads of extra special from those crits. And that also goes for all his friends. I often find myself being able to use the MAA special twice, if not even thrice in a single battle.

    I'd say to only allow him to gain special again after all the clouds around have vaporized. Also, the extra damage you get from the crits should not count towards the special bar, and that means for everybody (even a Viking hitting a Pirate inside the cloud).
  • WiremonkeyWiremonkey Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    Yeah I think that's a good idea MrMoho, maybe even a cool down period(?)
  • FinlordFinlord Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    Isn't MAA special only one that can be blocked with shield? At Least it feels that fart doesn't much damage through shield. Shield bashing is easy way to keep your distance with MAA.
  • MrMohoMrMoho Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    Getting out a shield is a really good tactic against the MAA's special. Though only the Vikings can utilize it.
  • BagasBagas Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    I dont like his special too, I think its a bit childish. But his special takes a few moments to start...
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  • OPlatypusOPlatypus Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    I agree with Moho that the MAA should be able to regain his special after the fart clouds have gone. Another thing I'd like go see is for raging zerkers to not be affected by his farts, at least the movement and parry penalties. I don't understand why a single special would have the ability to completely cancel out another one. :<
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    Wiremonkey wrote:
    1) Block??

    This does not really work as Man-At-Arms special blocks your ability to perfect parry and therefore you end up in a defense shell get hammered by his super powerful weapon (and it's crazy long reach) until death or until he has gathered another special to start this off again.


    What does this mean about Berserker's special then?

    2) Run away??

    AAAh if only one could retreat from the spinning, crossbowing polearm reaching wheel of death this is the special state man-at-arms. This is simply not an option. Man at arms is already one of the quickest classes in the game so even in vanilla states, it is almost impossible to run away from him. Not only will he (probably) be much faster than your class, added to this his special slows you down and also speeds him up. EVen if you had a chance you are now trying to run through mud with the murder maniac criting you constantly and ignoring your weak efforts to block.


    Again, what about Berserker's special?

    3) Lash out

    Now this seems to be the only half reasonable reply, once in the green mist of death, you cannot run or block so you simply have to try and time when man at arms runs in to hit you and lash out. This is an option when playing those who are new to the game, but playing against good players they figure out they have a huuge reach advantage with the weapon and a huuuge speed advantage whilst in (and out) of special mode so they can manuvere around you and slip in and out like Muhammed Ali in his prime vs you after a long night in T.G.I Friday's. (You are probably going down.)


    A third time, what about Berserker's special? The thing here is if the MaA has a special he is just a vulnerable outside of PP than before he started, unlike the Berserker who gains HP during his and lols at PP as well. It is easier to take down a MaA during his special than a Berserker during his. MaA's special is more of a CC which is why it is at the special gain as it is (as well as not being direct damage). Do not forget it has a start up period where he is slowed unlike Berserker's which gives you time to hit him hard or spread out.

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  • Combine™Combine™ Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited 4:20PM
    I actually don't mind his Halberd not being able to parry when on special, because even though his weapon is two handed anyone can parry it so having it no one can parry it on special is good enough. It would be silly if you were able to parry his Halberd while he's using his special aswell. But i do like how he's similar to the Berserker in almost everyway when it comes to his special, i know alot of people still dislike it but i found it to be very useful you just need to use it at the right time. An example would be bt_island when both the Pirates and Vikings are charging into the Chest room a single Man At Arms special covering the Chest room is able to prevent people from going in to grab a chest since they know if they go into the gas it'll slow them down hurting them aswell. The special is also useful for when you're on low health while being chased so boosting your speed and leaving a trail of gas you're able to escape before getting killed, enough time to quickly find health or armour to help you out. I know others would hate it from their point of view but if you were the Man At Arms in that situation it is very helpful for you. I know what i said is already pointed out but i always like to share my opinion towards to the Man At Arms, i really don't find anything wrong with him i see him as a balanced class just like the rest is, mostly depends on the player when it comes to fighting him.
  • NiveNive Beta Tester
    edited 4:20PM
    His special is literally Zerker Rage Lite™ with an area effect tacked onto an already weaker class.
    The MaA is really squishy! And his attacks take forever to build up!
    Just transfer what you know about how to defend against Zerker Rage Classic™ and you're golden.
  • Links121995Links121995 Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited October 2015
    Quote
    Wiremonkey wrote:

    1) Block

    Futile. It locks one into a defensive shell that is ultimately pierced by his block-piercing attacks.

    2) Run away

    Impossible. The Man-At-Arms is one of the quickest classes in the game and it's virtually impossible to run from him. Not only is he fast, his special slows you while hastening him. Even if he were not quickened, you are made to run as if through mud.

    3) Fight Back

    More reasonable. Running and blocking are less effective once in the cloud, thus fighting back is the only option. Good players are aware of their range and speed advantages, thus they maneuver in and out out combat without suffering a scratch.

    4) Catch And (Fail To) Kill

    If in the rarest of circumstances you engage a Man-At-Arms who isn't using his special and have a real shot at killing him, BOOM, he literally hits the gas and shoots off. He will run to heal, use his crossbow once or twice and he is back in the field chaining specials and killing pretty much everyone with a k/d off the charts.


    I cleaned up your points, but there are still a few problems.

    Rebuttal
    Despite what you say, blocking is not futile.
    Fully-charged halberd strikes take a while to execute, and will eat into the amount of time the Man-At-Arms has to take advantage of his current special, while diminishing the amount of damage the Man-At-Arms receives towards his next special.
    If he chooses not to fully charge his attacks, he'll only deal less damage overall given the swing speed of the halberd.

    As for running, it may not be possible to completely escape, but it IS possible to get so far away before the special takes effect that a quick class would only be affected by the clouds for a second or two. Slower classes have to rely on their weapons and stats.

    When fighting back, one is probably going to be out-damaged in a straight-up fight. It is more productive to counter a Man-At-Arms' fully-charged attacks with fully-charged attacks of one's own.
    If he chooses not to fully charge his attacks, then blocking is once again preferable.
    Shield-bashing can be effective. Not perfect with a ping above 80-ish, but still helpful with a little footwork and carefully-placed masonry.
    To directly address your point for a moment, if the Man-At-Arms weaves in and out of combat so gracefully, he's taking precious time that he could be using to strike.
    The cloud emissions only last for five seconds, and they only stick around (not following the emitter) for three more. This is not a lot of time to whack people if one insists on practicing ballét.

    As for the last point, if the Man-At-Arms runs to heal... So would everybody else. In addition, two crossbow headshots are not quite so easy to achieve that a special is an unjust reward.
    Furthermore, the Man-At-Arms is not the only class that behaves in this way. Freedom to flee is one of the advantages of being speedy, not of merely being a Man-At-Arms. To counter it, a class capable of pursuit must give chase. If one is not such a class, one should dig in and re-focus on options closer to their current position.


    Two Men-At-Arms may be capable of using and charging specials simultaneously, but in this scenario it is only fair to assume that the Men-At-Arms must contend with not one, not two, but four (possibly three) opponents.

    I find it astonishing that when I point out the near-complete inability of one to escape/fight back against a farting Man-At-Arms, I interpret that as an indicator of the special's effectiveness and of his role, but when you list the reasons for his special being effective, it's apparently grounds for an urgent nerf.

    Also, the Berserker only has 20-70 more effective HP than the Man-At-Arms. Just sayin'.

    If you wish to argue against my points, please refrain from anything along the lines of: "Skilled players are more skillful than unskilled players."
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  • MrMohoMrMoho Senior
    edited October 2015
    Just for completions sake, and because I feel like it, I'm gonna list some very effective ways to counter the MAA special (my previous point still counts, though. He regains his special too fast because of his lingering clouds).

    If you have a shield (Huscarl and Gestir), use it. Blocking greatly reduces the damage he can do to you. He will still penetrate your shield a little, but not a lot. If the opportunity arrives, bash him. Despite the MAA being a scout class, his weapon his really slow, so a well placed bash greatly reduces the time the MAA can utilize his special.

    As a Skirmisher, if you see a MAA start using his special, immediately bolt off in the other direction. You are perfectly capable of outrunning him, even with his special movement-speed boost. I believe that a farting MAA isn't as fast as a Skirmisher anyways, so no problems here. Just don't get caught in the cloud.

    That leaves the Captain, Sharpshooter and Berserker.

    As a Sharshooter your best bet is (like with everyone else you encounter) to headshot him and finish him off with the artisan pistol. If you miss, you are screwed since he is faster, stronger and healthier than you. This isn't much of a problem, he is supposed to counter you, after all. I mean, if you miss your are screwed regardless of him using his special or not.

    Captain? Smack him back. You deal more damage than he does (not per swing that is, but in terms of dps), and with his crits you are probably on about the same level. Only difference? You have loads more meat than he does, so if he isn't using his further reach properly that encounter will end badly for him.

    As the Berserker you are pretty much boned. You can't outrun him and dodging is also not an option inside the cloud. Try your best to counterstrike him and hope for the best.

    And, I don't think that needs to be said, if you can special, special him back. About everyones special either smacks him away far enough, disables him long enough or makes you faster. Or, you now, he dies from it.
  • WiremonkeyWiremonkey Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    Hey, thanks for all your replies everyone! From now on I will use a sheild but I do still think it's an OP special when compared to other classes... Also the difference between MaA special and Beserker is that beserker special doesn't come with an AoE effect, which makes a huuuge difference. Also, as previously mentioned, for some reason the MaA special completley cancels out the beserker's one if he is in the nuclear green cloud range...
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited October 2015
    You forgot to mention the HP bonus as mentioned for Berserker which can make him tankier for the fight which MaA does not (which is the real bigger difference).

    Edit: I probably forgot to mention that people during these specials tend to always just swing wildly which makes them predictible and easier to avoid than before they specialed. The slow is more for chasing squishier targets (Skirmisher etc.) and isn't as crippling as believed on others (aka Berserker during his special; not that I wouldn't mind if the slow was half as effective during his special but just saying it isn't as crippling as believed).

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  • Inb4Inb4 Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    FYI just disregard anything KOKO says because he has BPD. Hope this information helps.
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  • SidorovichSidorovich Senior
    edited 4:20PM

    You forgot to mention the HP bonus as mentioned for Berserker which can make him tankier for the fight which MaA does not (which is the real bigger difference).

    Edit: I probably forgot to mention that people during these specials tend to always just swing wildly which makes them predictible and easier to avoid than before they specialed. The slow is more for chasing squishier targets (Skirmisher etc.) and isn't as crippling as believed on others (aka Berserker during his special; not that I wouldn't mind if the slow was half as effective during his special but just saying it isn't as crippling as believed).


    Do you do anything here other than constantly shut people down? We can't make a point about balance, we can't even talk about the state of the game itself.
  • edited 4:20PM
    Odd how you two come online at the same time to hate on one person, lol.
  • SidorovichSidorovich Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    Wow Koko, deleting posts now? Tsk tsk.
  • Inb4Inb4 Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    I don't see how you have the authority to delete legitimate comments that concern the community.
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  • FelisFelis Glitch Kitty PVKII Team
    edited 4:20PM
    It wasn't Koko this time, off-topic posts like that will be hidden. Your post wasn't very legitimate either.
  • Inb4Inb4 Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    Koko has the right to post his opinions just like I have the right to post that he's stuck up and arrogant, truth hurts buddy, he doesn't contribute anything to the forums and does nothing more than parade around the forums attempting to shut people down without actually saying anything constructive and/or making silly arguments that are just plain wrong.
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  • SidorovichSidorovich Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    Felis wrote:

    It wasn't Koko this time, off-topic posts like that will be hidden. Your post wasn't very legitimate either.


    Pretty sure you can't afford to be deleting posts and complaints related to the game and its community when you have barely anyone posting on here. I'm convinced that if the actual developers of the game decided to prune away some of the people with mod powers, players would actually enjoy participating and posting here. Just like they used to before yall came here and went on a power trip.
  • SpirrwellSpirrwell That Guy That Knows Things About a Lot of Things Members
    edited 4:20PM
    Inb4 and Sidorovich, based on our forum rules that you agreed upon in making your account, you inherently agree not to diverge topics away from their intended discussion. This original topic had absolutely nothing to do with Koko.

    You are free to settle things through PM. But any posts that target any member of the forum regardless of status that are meant to engage in unrelated argument and entice that person to rally back will be dealt with in accordance to the forum rules. So your posts will be removed and that will be the end of this discussion here. You are free to follow up with any of these people via PM so long as they aren't being harassed.

    ~Spirrwell
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  • Inb4Inb4 Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    If he's making an argument that is just downright silly/wrong (which relates to the OP) then I'm obviously going to react to it. His arrogance is incredible, and he seems to think having 5000 hours in game and being a member of the team (without actually having contributed anything) makes his word gospel over anyone else on the forums, just look through his posts, can you see any post in which he admits his argument was flawed? People need to be aware of these things when they're talking to a member of the PVKII team which for all intents and purposes are supposed to represent the game itself and the direction that you as developers intend to take the game.

    His argument IS flawed; firstly, the only two things the Berserker spec and MAA spec have in common is that they both get a movement speed buff and they both allow freedom of movement once activated.

    The MAA special does not make you swing your weapons faster, the MAA special does not give you a HP buff.
    The berserker special does not slow or passively damage enemies around you, the berserker special does not amplify the damage of the rest of your team.

    Comparing the two is flawed - plain and simple. He'll never admit to being wrong, but let's face facts here, the two specials are quite different and the only real common ground between them is the fact that you receive speed buffs and that both specials allow freedom of movement. The whole idea of "it's easier to kill a zerker when he's specialing than a MAA when he's specialing" or vice versa is also flawed, because these things are more down to player preference. Players who can jump around and dodge a lot will probably have an easier time againt the Berserker because he doesn't restrict your movement or vision, however players who are not so good at dodging and prefer to ball on up in players faces might be less phased at the idea of being slowed by the MAA special. I play a lot of Skirmisher, ergo I feel more comfortable fighting a Berserker than I do a MAA simply because the MAA can completely cripple your speed.
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  • Inb4Inb4 Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    Another legitimate comment deleted, nice.
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  • SidorovichSidorovich Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    Apparently making a point / attempting to have a discussion is considered offtopic or "targeting" someone now. You can barely make a post here now without offending someone's sensibilities. Again, why even have a forum if you don't want any dissenting opinions and just wanna have a "dev" circlejerk (dev in quotes cause we all know what the contribution of yall has been to the game thus far).
  • edited 4:20PM
    Sidorovich wrote:

    Apparently making a point / attempting to have a discussion is considered offtopic or "targeting" someone now. You can barely make a post here now without offending someone's sensibilities. Again, why even have a forum if you don't want any dissenting opinions and just wanna have a "dev" circlejerk (dev in quotes cause we all know what the contribution of yall has been to the game thus far).


    If you see that it is futile to spread such bitterness on the forum, why do you continue? Is your life that devoid of social interaction that you have to force website admins to do their job and respond to you for any sense of human contact? Go to omegle.com , I assure you that you will have a more pleasant time. Enjoy yourself, son.
  • WiremonkeyWiremonkey Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    wot? Did I miss something?
  • El NegroEl Negro The Genuinely Only Sane Person Guests
    edited 4:20PM
    MrMoho wrote:
    Captain? Smack him back. You deal more damage than he does (not per swing that is, but in terms of dps), and with his crits you are probably on about the same level. Only difference? You have loads more meat than he does, so if he isn't using his further reach properly that encounter will end badly for him.

    As the Berserker you are pretty much boned. You can't outrun him and dodging is also not an option inside the cloud. Try your best to counterstrike him and hope for the best.


    I don't see how Berserker is actually "boned". Captain and Berserker got almost the same attitude on the MAA, except knowing Berserker is not really a tank and got lower armour, you may need to be a little bit more careful, but overall the Captain/Berserker VS MAA tactic is not so different.

    Wiremonkey wrote:

    wot? Did I miss something?


    Two people directly attacking KOKO and not staying in topic. That's according to what these guys say anyway.
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  • WiremonkeyWiremonkey Senior
    edited 4:20PM
    I see! Well heading back to the topic I think one possible option would be to limit the amount of time the man at arms special lasts?? As in, most other specials on last for 1 or 2 seconds (skirmishers lunge, HK's swing, Sharpshooters bomb, huscurls dash etc) but man-at-arms stays in the swamp mist of death for good chunk of time. I know the beserker also stays enraged for a while but his health can drop afterwards and also, I do think man-at-arms special is more powerful than Beserkers because a) it not only powers up man-at-arms, but powers down all enemies standing within a fair distance of him and B) it literally cancels out beserker if they come head to head.

    Just ideas y'all!
  • DrauliusDraulius Banned
    edited October 2015
    You're talking about a situation where the best player is a Man-At-Arms. I see this happen a lot. Then yes, his special is the most dangerous in the game when nobody knows how to counter it. But now let's say all the other players in the server are just as good. The MAA can be easily killed by ranged weapons and especially ranged specials. If you're good with a shield bash then you can buy yourself enough time or even kill the MAA before his special ends. The Captain's Cutlass and Viking Two-Handed Axes also make short work of the Man-At-Arms. Some classes are screwed if caught in his gas, but you could say that for some other specials too.

    Here's the problem. For how good the Man-Art-Arms special is, he can build it up too fast and start building up a second one too soon after using it (while enemies are still green!). So the amount of special points and the duration of the cooldown should definitely be looked at. This would give players enough time to kill the MAA, which is pretty simple once you know his weaknesses, before he can build up a special. At the very least, he would be near death when activating his special unless he's up against much weaker players.
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