Regarding the Sharpshooter...

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  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited 5:06PM
    Since the topic of SS and Archer has been rather volatile lately both here on the forum and steam discussion, I have been given permission to mention that there have been greenlit changes to be done to the ranged classes for quite some time but as we are mostly still working on the hotfixes that will be some time still. As we move past that then some more can be mentioned about them. They are mostly QoL things that can aid and adjust some issues the ranged classes have but understand that there isn't such great polarization between the two (especially since they do not play the same way) that may be mentioned but some things can be nudged and improved just as is often done in balancing updates. Again, these are mostly QoL things but should give the feeling of greater satisfaction to the one playing and the one facing the player. Obviously, things are subject to change and more may be revealed post-hotfix.

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  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited April 2015

    I think a lot of the arguments that are posted are only in specific what-ifs and idealistic conditions. I still think the Archer is better because I find it easier to hit the arrows than a travelling bullet, but the SS isn't useless.

    A lot of this boils down to opinion, which is why the Archer v SS topic will never die lol.
    tbh hardly anything i said there was an opinion... also koko "Rifle should really be used at close range like the xbow" isnt the ss meant to be a ranged class whos weapons excel at long range? due to his weapons being projectiles its extremely difficult to be a real long range "sharpshooter" or hit anything at long rage
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  • edited 5:06PM
    People will sill be debating it when the bondi comes in too.
  • Links121995Links121995 Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited 5:06PM
    Reply to MrMoho
    In a test to compare a consistently strong ranged class and a glass-cannon ranged class, I feel that the glass-cannon class should be allowed to fire its glass-cannon.

    MrMoho wrote:
    It is still rather strong at close range.
    At close range it's just a nuisance, though the crossbow delivers the bigger nuisance with its knockback.

    Where the crossbow has knockback, the rifle has damage and the added advantage of attackers disregarding their shields.

    My aim would be poor if the Sharpshooter himself took over. The fact that I was related to the act of aiming would be enough to cause 90% of the shots to miss.

    When in close-range as a ranged class, one should use one's melee weapons to their advantage. Engaging an opponent with the dagger and then bailing out is usually good for a few inches.
    You seem to have immense trouble figuring out how the pistol works, so I'll tell you what I've learned.

    -One shot per two seconds.
    -Slightly affected by gravity over moderate distances.
    -Reticule is just a teensy bit too small to be accurate, in my opinion. If you center it on your opponent and they take up more than half of the space inside it, take the shot.
    -A tiny bit of leading never hurt anybody wielding a non-hitscan weapon.
    -Shooting distracted enemies is good.
    -Persuading enemies to use their shields is good.
    -Aiming in close-quaters in unnecessary and dangerous.

    MrMoho wrote:
    The Archer can deal more damage with his arrows than the Pistol of the Sharpshooter.

    Well there's your problem. You're ignoring the rifle. You're probably ignoring the dagger, too.

    MrMoho wrote:
    How does a Archer waste bolts when he uses them in place of arrows? Isn't the Sharpshoooter, too?

    Firstly, the "Sharpshoooter" is not too. The rifle's damage is enough to fill an empty special bar with one headshot on a Berserker. This is a great asset. Secondly, during my testing, I found that the Crossbow deals more damage than the bow when used for long-range shots like the rifle, and even more with headshots. However, in the time it takes to switch to the crossbow, aim, waste a bolt, and switch back, one could simply loose an arrow and knock another one. I also found that while the rifle's headshots are devastating, the crossbow's headshots are laughable.

    I keep saying it, ammo is all over the place except in Last Team Standing where no/few players get any pick-ups at all. On that note, I'd like to point out for Bandwagonman that the Sharpshooter gains ten pistol bullets from ammo pick-ups, starts with fifteen, and has a maximum of twenty. What you suggest is already the case.

    I recall an encounter with what was more or less a team full of inept Sharpshooters (clearly not very skilled at the game, as opposed to merely poor Sharpshooters) and they were spread out and annoying (somehow not completely sword-fodder) but my most memorable encounter with multiple Sharpshooters involved rapid rifle fire. My shield got me close, but their pistols took me down shortly after.

    There were only two.


    Due to his weapons being projectiles its extremely difficult to be a real long range "sharpshooter" or hit anything at long rage

    It's amazing that anybody can use any projectile weapons at all, given that every other projectile travels slower than those bullets.


    I still think the Archer is better because I find it easier to hit the arrows than the bullets.

    Opinion.

    An accurate one-word description of your own post. Allow me to fix it so it looks less like an opinion masquerading as a fact.


    I'm a better Archer than I am a Sharpshooter, because I find it easier to land the arrows than the bullets.


    Apples. wrote:

    People will sill be debating it when the bondi comes in too.

    I'll see you then.
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  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited April 2015

    Reply to MrMoho
    In a test to compare a consistently strong ranged class and a glass-cannon ranged class, I feel that the glass-cannon class should be allowed to fire its glass-cannon.


    Where the crossbow has knockback, the rifle has damage and the added advantage of attackers disregarding their shields.

    My aim would be poor if the Sharpshooter himself took over. The fact that I was related to the act of aiming would be enough to cause 90% of the shots to miss.

    When in close-range as a ranged class, one should use one's melee weapons to their advantage. Engaging an opponent with the dagger and then bailing out is usually good for a few inches.
    You seem to have immense trouble figuring out how the pistol works, so I'll tell you what I've learned.

    -One shot per two seconds.
    -Slightly affected by gravity over moderate distances.
    -Reticule is just a teensy bit too small to be accurate, in my opinion. If you center it on your opponent and they take up more than half of the space inside it, take the shot.
    -A tiny bit of leading never hurt anybody wielding a non-hitscan weapon.
    -Shooting distracted enemies is good.
    -Persuading enemies to use their shields is good.
    -Aiming in close-quaters in unnecessary and dangerous.


    Well there's your problem. You're ignoring the rifle. You're probably ignoring the dagger, too.


    Firstly, the "Sharpshoooter" is not too. The rifle's damage is enough to fill an empty special bar with one headshot on a Berserker. This is a great asset. Secondly, during my testing, I found that the Crossbow deals more damage than the bow when used for long-range shots like the rifle, and even more with headshots. However, in the time it takes to switch to the crossbow, aim, waste a bolt, and switch back, one could simply loose an arrow and knock another one. I also found that while the rifle's headshots are devastating, the crossbow's headshots are laughable.

    I keep saying it, ammo is all over the place except in Last Team Standing where no/few players get any pick-ups at all. On that note, I'd like to point out for Bandwagonman that the Sharpshooter gains ten pistol bullets from ammo pick-ups, starts with fifteen, and has a maximum of twenty. What you suggest is already the case.

    I recall an encounter with what was more or less a team full of inept Sharpshooters (clearly not very skilled at the game, as opposed to merely poor Sharpshooters) and they were spread out and annoying (somehow not completely sword-fodder) but my most memorable encounter with multiple Sharpshooters involved rapid rifle fire. My shield got me close, but their pistols took me down shortly after.

    There were only two.


    It's amazing that anybody can use any projectile weapons at all, given that every other projectile travels slower than those bullets.


    An accurate one-word description of your own post. Allow me to fix it so it looks less like an opinion masquerading as a fact.




    I'll see you then.
    any pvkii player will tell you that bullet projectiles are harder to lead for some reason. all his guns should be hitscan so he has an edge that no other class has so instead of being forced to go up close to get consistent results he can lay back aim and snipe like he was made to do...i really think its a good idea they should at least test it in private...i dont see how it would break the game
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  • MrMohoMrMoho Senior
    edited April 2015
    Reply to Links121995

    I do not have trouble aiming with the pistol, I fully understand how it works and properly hit with it. What I am saying is that it took me (and from what I am hearing everybody else) far longer to get the hang of it. Since it is not hitscan, the fact that you cannot see the projectile makes it a lot harder to hit with, far harder than it is to lead a bow shots properly on long range to still hit a foe even if he sees you and wants to dodge.

    My main probelm here is though, No matter how good you are, while jumping, you will miss with the pistol, even when aiming, not so much with the bow, making the Archer's jump-and-run so much more effective (this is a problem I have with the Archer, though). It might take more finesse to learn the Jump-and-shoot with the bow, but I stand at the point that the bow is the far better tool for this trick than the pistol ever will be.

    What does still give me trouble is the bloody rifle at long range, faaaar more than the crossbow and I finally figured out why. Other than wtih the pistol, you get only one shot and then you have to take a reload pause. That added up with the fact that you do not see the projectile makes it far harder to train with it. However my big problems are that a.) I think the little smoke line that indicates the bullets trajectory is faster than the bullets itself. It really jarring when you shoot, the smoke reached your opponent but the bullet still takes like a second to arrive, and b.) That cloud.You like it, Links, I know you do, and I see why. It obscures you behind a smokewall and people do not see clearly see what your next move is. The thing is that people can still see your feet, but you can't see the people. That way they can pretty much predict what you will do next, wheras you need to leave the cloud in order to see them again. Also, it just adds to the incapability of seeing where your bloody shot lands. Granted, this problem only applies to long range, something I think he should be better at than the archer.

    Also, I am not ignoring the rifle. The crossbow has a faster reload and knockback, giving it higher dps. It has a damage dropoff, but again, it is null after three feet. The diffrence beetween the two isn't big, I admit, which is probably the reason I haven't brought it up as much as I should. Also, I have the feeling you use the crossbow far too late. In a scenario where you are getting charged from berserker, you should start off shooting him with your reloadable weapon. He will be a couple feet away from you, causing the crossbow to deal its full damage (that is just as high as the rifles (including headshots, I believe), making it more usefull than the rifle because of its knockback.

    Considering the special, the Sharpshooter often needs more time readying it, as he will more often than not get it while having the pistol out and he needs to switch to the rifle first, making him more predictable (like the huscarl), not even speaking of the audio cue that plays while charging the special, while the archer more often than not gets it with the bow out, and even when he switches over to the bow from the crossbow, nobody knows if he will use his special now or not, as when you shoot your crossbow, naturally you switch over to the bow. On top of it, you and Koko keep saying that the Sharpshooter gets his special after a rifle and pistol shot or dagger attack, but so does the Archer. When it comes to which special is better, however, I do not have an answer, as I find them both to be equally good.

    And when it comes to the melee weapons, boy howdy would I be happy if the Archer ever even had to use that thing, and that is a problem solely with the archer, the fact that his jump-and-shoot tactic always outclasses his sword, unless you run out of amunition (this is something I really want to go away). And even when it comes to that, it is better than the Dagger, with no doubt in my mind. The upside the dagger has is that it is unpreditable, but that is moreso because nobody ever uses it, while the butterknife has more range, damage and actaully some denfesive capabilitys, something the dagger has almost none of.

    And yes, this ammunition thing is solely a problem in lts. It does put the Sharpshooter not often, but at times below the Archer in terms of what he can do in a round.

    Also, Koko, what sort of people do not pick up missed amunition? It is bloody usefull, especially when you are a Gestir!

    Edit: Changes will be done to both ranged classes? Welp, I shall silence all my arguments 'till then.
  • Ukyo KuonjiUkyo Kuonji Captain Main Senior
    edited 5:06PM

    -snip-

    Yeah that's what I meant, I worded it badly.
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  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited April 2015
    admin edit: spam not contributing to thread
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  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited April 2015

    all his guns should be hitscan so he has an edge that no other class has so instead of being forced to go up close to get consistent results he can lay back aim and snipe like he was made to do...i really think its a good idea they should at least test it in private...i dont see how it would break the game


    The SS Flintlock was already hitscan in the past when SS was released, it isn't a new thing to test.


    MrMoho wrote:

    I do not have trouble aiming with the pistol

    I see this, then I see this:
    My main probelm here is though, No matter how good you are, while jumping, you will miss with the pistol, even when aiming,

    Regardless, if you can't hit with it then land then fire immediately prior to moving again just as Archers pull before jumping.

    the fact that you cannot see the projectile makes it a lot harder to hit with

    Again, as I said before, this also makes it harder to dodge something you cannot see.

    Granted, this problem only applies to long range, something I think he should be better at than the archer. Also, I am not ignoring the rifle. The crossbow has a faster reload and knockback, giving it higher dps.

    Sustained damage you cannot see at long range? Sounds unfair.

    How often are the circumstances you are using xbow/rifle to fire, reload, fire repeatedly in a row?

    Also, I have the feeling you use the crossbow far too late.

    If someone gets the jump on you with you not noticing from the side/back is it too late?

    making him more predictable (like the huscarl)

    Archer's is also predictable when you notice the way he stands and pulls the arrow. It is also harder to land especially from far/up close. Since SS has the benefit of being aoe (not even mentioning the launching potential) it easier to land it and follow up with a pistol/rifle during their blind/stun.

    On top of it, you and Koko keep saying that the Sharpshooter gets his special after a rifle and pistol shot or dagger attack, but so does the Archer.

    This quickly changes the closer you are. SS doesn't have the same drop off as Archer to this up close. You can try on bots the amount of special you get up close. Again, not every Archer including good ones have 360 vision especially in chaotic fights.

    And when it comes to the melee weapons, boy howdy would I be happy if the Archer ever even had to use that thing, and that is a problem solely with the archer, the fact that his jump-and-shoot tactic always outclasses his sword...
    ...unless you run out of amunition (this is something I really want to go away)

    Kiting potential it can if landing the shots, if not, he will be run over because there is zero fear of potential parry/perfect parry. It is easy to tell a great archer from a good or mediocre one from if he remembers his sword.

    Also, why do you want running out of ammo for Archer to go away?

    damage and actaully some denfesive capabilitys, something the dagger has almost none of. Also, Koko, what sort of people do not pick up missed amunition? It is bloody usefull, especially when you are a Gestir!

    I suggest you try to melee a HK while parrying his swings and see how much damage + special you get during that time.

    And yes, this ammunition thing is solely a problem in lts. It does put the Sharpshooter not often, but at times below the Archer in terms of what he can do in a round.

    We were speaking strictly of Archer, not Gestir...


    Edit: Opinion I say here like this isn't indicative what is to come for the ranged classes. It is just to downplay the bit of hyperbole that is out there. Nor am I against the changes that are to possibly happen.

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  • FinlordFinlord Senior
    edited 5:06PM
    I think SS is balanced but not very useful except for defending/support. Allowing him to move slowly while reloading his gun, like captains moves when reloading special or even slower would make him more usable and does not affect balance much. I dont play with SS mainly because it takes forever to kill your enemy compared to other pirate classes.
  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited April 2015

    The SS Flintlock was already hitscan in the past when SS was released, it isn't a new thing to test.



    I see this, then I see this:

    Regardless, if you can't hit with it then land then fire immediately prior to moving again just as Archers pull before jumping.


    Again, as I said before, this also makes it harder to dodge something you cannot see.


    Sustained damage you cannot see at long range? Sounds unfair.

    How often are the circumstances you are using xbow/rifle to fire, reload, fire repeatedly in a row?


    If someone gets the jump on you with you not noticing from the side/back is it too late?


    Archer's is also predictable when you notice the way he stands and pulls the arrow. It is also harder to land especially from far/up close. Since SS has the benefit of being aoe (not even mentioning the launching potential) it easier to land it and follow up with a pistol/rifle during their blind/stun.


    This quickly changes the closer you are. SS doesn't have the same drop off as Archer to this up close. You can try on bots the amount of special you get up close. Again, not every Archer including good ones have 360 vision especially in chaotic fights.


    Kiting potential it can if landing the shots, if not, he will be run over because there is zero fear of potential parry/perfect parry. It is easy to tell a great archer from a good or mediocre one from if he remembers his sword.

    Also, why do you want running out of ammo for Archer to go away?


    I suggest you try to melee a HK while parrying his swings and see how much damage + special you get during that time.

    And yes, this ammunition thing is solely a problem in lts. It does put the Sharpshooter not often, but at times below the Archer in terms of what he can do in a round.

    We were speaking strictly of Archer, not Gestir...


    Edit: Opinion I say here like this isn't indicative what is to come for the ranged classes. It is just to downplay the bit of hyperbole that is out there. Nor am I against the changes that are to possibly happen.
    ik i was talking about both the rifle and flintlock. needless to say all the differences i pointed out in the archers favor still remain no matter how much you downplay them all (forgot to mention smoke fills your screen whenever you fire one of his guns). there isnt really anything big that he has that the archer doesn't apart from "he can fire a bit faster if the archer chooses to fully charge all of his arrows" and even then he does more dmg. idk archer just feels much more fluid and seems a lot easier to kill someone one v one without help (like that one annoying archer that destroy everyone on a server alone. i never seen that being done with a ss) as for the ammo thing what kind of argument is "you shouldn't be shooting at a heavy knight anyway" *insert wtf face here*
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  • Ukyo KuonjiUkyo Kuonji Captain Main Senior
    edited 5:06PM
    There's hard numbers than can be compared between the Archer and SS. Running speed, health/armor, reload time, damage, all that. Things like aiming and skill are up to the player, not the class. People, as I always say, will have opinions in the matter. The butterknife does have an edge in combat because it can parry light (and I think medium weapons, not sure), whereas the dagger can't PP and has a shorter range. The SS can fire constantly to dish out consistent damage, while the Archer has to draw his bow in order to deal more damage.
    The Archer has immediate knockback with his crossbow yes, while the SS trades that instantaneous bolt fire to charge up his special for potentially more knockback + falling damage.

    I like playing SS sometimes. he's fun, even though I'm not really that good at aiming with the pistol. I also like playing the archer because it feels nice to plug enemies with arrows. As Links said, when Bondi comes out, the discussion will only grow bigger as there'll be a new ranged class to compare. What I'm getting at is by no means supposed to be a final word, but I think people should should just play whatever ranged class they like lol :icon_viking2: If you think Archer is better, play him! :archer:
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  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited 5:06PM

    Things like aiming and skill are up to the player, not the class.

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  • TheInBreastigatorTheInBreastigator Beta Tester, Senior
    edited May 2015
    Meh, I've come to accepting him in his current state.

    He's a fun gimmicky class, and it's always nice to have one or two on the team helping with support. Having a team solely comprised of sharpshooters is just asking for trouble, same with archers. These two teams now seem to inherently have that issue of the possibility of a team simply being dragged down because of the ranged classes not comparing to something like vikings, who all excel in up close combat.

    One of my more prevalent requests though is to allow his bullets to go through teammates. It gets to be annoying trying to hit someone when a skirmisher(s) is/are actively dancing around him.

    Disregard this request if boolet already do go through teammates, it's been awhile since I played so I don't exactly remember
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  • Saias9Saias9 Senior
    edited 5:06PM
    if i remmemkber corectly the sharpshoter has the best move speeed of the rangewd classes so he xcan get away with just jump spamiing snaf jitting people with his pistol and many things ifb canmty sdecibesn that givwsk me odbotfeble nightmare;ls
  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited 5:06PM
    SaiaS wrote:

    if i remmemkber corectly the sharpshoter has the best move speeed of the rangewd classes so he xcan get away with just jump spamiing snaf jitting people with his pistol and many things ifb canmty sdecibesn that givwsk me odbotfeble nightmare;ls
    what?
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  • NiveNive Beta Tester
    edited 5:06PM
    "If I remember correctly, the sharpshooter has the best move speed of the ranged classes so he can get away with just jump spamming and hitting people with his pistol and many other things I can't describe that gives me terrible(?) nightmares."

    Judging by how the sentence ended, I'm pretty sure she did it on purpose. Also, she's wrong, the sharpshooter's move speed is identical to the archer's, but aiming his pistol effectively makes him slower unless you work around it with tactical jumpage.
  • Saias9Saias9 Senior
    edited 5:06PM

    "If I remember correctly, the sharpshooter has the best move speed of the ranged classes so he can get away with just jump spamming and hitting people with his pistol and many other things I can't describe that gives me terrible(?) nightmares."

    Judging by how the sentence ended, I'm pretty sure she did it on purpose. Also, she's wrong, the sharpshooter's move speed is identical to the archer's, but aiming his pistol effectively makes him slower unless you work around it with tactical jumpage.


    i was joking around for the hell of it
  • NiveNive Beta Tester
    edited 5:06PM
    I thought it was funny, also, odbotfeble is a great word. Get on it, Webster.
  • Saias9Saias9 Senior
    edited May 2015

    I thought it was funny, also, odbotfeble is a great word. Get on it, Webster.


    lol kay ill remember that next time on web loli and dames 2.

    also thanks xd
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited May 2015

    One of my more prevalent requests though is to allow his bullets to go through teammates. It gets to be annoying trying to hit someone when a skirmisher(s) is/are actively dancing around him.

    Archer would also get it if that happened and that is something I am sure would not be fun when hiding behind a HK XP


    she

    That is a guy.

    but aiming his pistol effectively makes him slower unless you work around it with tactical jumpage.

    Archer essentially does it similarly.

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  • Saias9Saias9 Senior
    edited 5:06PM
    shhhhhh~
  • shayologoshayologo Senior
    edited May 2015

    Things like aiming and skill are up to the player, not the class


    SS don't have 100% precision
    When you aim you get 90-95% at long range that can make a difference
    Without aiming you get 80-85%
    When you run it's 70-75%
    When you jump it's more like 50-60%

    All that depend ennemy range, if you jump to hit someone at 20m you don't have lot of chance to hit him.
    With an archer you can do what you want, arrow always go where you aim. Jumping and hitting it's not hard compared to SS


    Archer essentially does it similarly.

    But SS lost more speed, and shoot time
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited 5:06PM

    SS don't have 100% precision
    When you aim you get 90-95% at long range that can make a difference
    Without aiming you get 80-85%
    When you run it's 70-75%
    When you jump it's more like 50-60%

    When you play SS for a while you can figure the way it fires and adjust to it, just as some can shoot the rifle without aiming it.


    But SS lost more speed, and shoot time

    SS doesn't lose the damage for it where Archer can since he isn't able to pull the bow fully if he is flicking the arrow.

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