Archer>Sharpshooter, here's why.

DrauliusDraulius Banned
edited August 2014 in PVKII Discussion
Archer and Sharpshooter are of course the two dedicated ranged classes in PVKII. The Archer uses a bow and crossbow, and the Sharpshooter uses a pistol and musket. Despite the technological difference, I have reason to believe the Sharpshooter is inferior and not balanced with the Archer. Here are some simple reasons why:

1. Let's get what may be a personal preference out of the way first, which is that I feel guns are harder to hit with. Bullets travel almost instantly, but arrows and bolts are slower and easy to lead.
2. The bow has unlimited range, but the artisan pistol has a maximum range.
3. The butter knife is longer range, and can attack from all directions, whereas the fancy dagger auto-swings with the exception of thrust. This means the fancy dagger is more situational, and harder to hit with.
4. The Archer can carry more ammo than the Sharpshooter.
5. The Archer's special is quicker to ready up and fire, can be held as long as you want, and is longer range. You also can't damage yourself with it.
6. The Archer's crossbow has a quicker reload than the musket.
7. Arrows and bolts can bounce off something and still hit their target, but bullets cannot.
8. Archers can fire underwater, but Sharpshooters can't.

Maybe there is something I'm doing wrong, but I find all of these to be very good points. Let me know what you think.
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Comments

  • TenebrisTenebris Senior
    edited August 2014
    Both the Archer and Sharpshooter has 2 - 2 ranged weapons. In my case, I think it's way more easier to aim and hit with the Pistol than the Bow, although the Longbow deals more damage / hit. Our handsome rogue has something though, and it's not his moustache. The Sharpie can Headshot, and it does way more damage than a Bow hit. The Musket ( without a headshot ) and the Bow seems to be almost equal in terms of damage, I may be wrong however. It's a bit harder to land the Sharpshooter Special, but it deals more damage, and the Archer's special arrows can only hit 1 target / arrow.
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  • DrauliusDraulius Banned
    edited 9:16PM
    08126 wrote:

    Both the Archer and Sharpshooter has 2 - 2 ranged weapons. In my case, I think it's way more easier to aim and hit with the Pistol than the Bow, although the Longbow deals more damage / hit. Our handsome rogue has something though, and it's not his moustache. The Sharpie can Headshot, and it does way more damage than a Bow hit. The Musket ( without a headshot ) and the Bow seems to be almost equal in terms of damage, I may be wrong however. It's a bit harder to land the Sharpshooter Special, but it deals more damage, and the Archer's special arrows can only hit 1 target / arrow.


    If I remember correctly only the musket can headshot, and it has a lengthy reload. Not the pistol. Am I wrong?
  • Links121995Links121995 Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited November 2014
    Archer analysis.
    The Archer's strength comes from his longbow's range, his crossbow's headshots and knockback, and his short sword's ability to block, and deal some damage in close quarters while retaining that ability to block.

    His weaknesses involve low health, a slow firing speed, an inability to deal damage through shields without the crossbow, and no way to block without switching away from his bows. An empty crossbow could be considered a weakness as well.

    Layering these on top of each other, one can conclude that the range offsets his low health, and somewhat his firing speed. The crossbow's shield-breaking head-shooting back-knocking power is cut off when it's not loaded, and mitigated in one way or another by various circumstances, and though the short sword is able to mitigate some damage it will not preserve him forever.

    Team-wise, his lack of health is further made redundant by the presence of Heavy Knights who have it in spades, and cause the enemy to take longer routes around them. His range makes up for their lack of speed, and takes advantage of their area-denial. His inability to deal damage through shields may persuade enemies with shields to use them, denying them their primary and ranged weapons.


    Sharpshooter analysis.
    The Sharpshooter's strength comes from his rifle's range, his rifle's power, his rifle's ability to headshot with even MORE power, the smoke cloud that makes it tougher to see where he went, the high-speed projectile bullets, a faster firing speed than most other things (pistol doesn't have to be charged) and the unpredictable nature of his dagger.

    His weaknesses include very low health, a long reload on his rifle, a smoke cloud that makes it difficult for him to see, an inability to shoot through shields, and the dagger's low damage in an environment that suggests large weapons.

    Layering these over each other, one can conclude that the range and power of the rifle, combined with it's quickly-moving bullets and the pistol's, offset his low health. The high-speed projectiles further offset his low health, as he can leave cover, shoot, and get behind cover before a counter-attack takes his head off. The smoke is both an asset and a hindrance, thus, neutral. The dagger is small and weak, but also unpredictable and quick. Like a pirate.

    Team-wise, his low health is often offset by the threat of Skirmishers backstabbing would-be assailants. The power of his rifle can either severely weaken an enemy, making them easy prey for his team mates, or stop them from attacking head-on, creating a hole in their team's defense. It can also persuade enemies with shields to use them, denying them their primary and ranged weapons.


    Special analysis.
    The Archer's special can be achieved with a couple of arrows.
    The Sharpshooter's with a rifle shot and a pistol shot, or a few pistol shots.
    The Archer's special is geared more towards dealing a lot of damage to people in a wide line, while the Sharpshooter's is better at disorienting a larger group, and occasionally launching an enemy skywards.
    Both are useful for their respective teams.


    Closing thoughts. They're different. One's more at home at range, surrounded by metal shields. The other is more adaptable. Effective at long range and out of the way, or swarming with his team mates just out of enemy sword range.

    To respond directly:
    - The fact of bullet spread counts for something when deciding which weapon is easier to aim. Your personal opinion, doesn't.
    - The bow does not have infinite range, though it is longer than that of the pistol. At that sort of range, one should take advantage of the distance, and use the rifle safe in the knowledge that nobody's gonna kill them while they reload.

    - The shortsword may have longer range, but the dagger has attack speed. The shortsword can attack from and be parried in all directions. The dagger is unpredictable.
    - The question of ammo is a tie-breaker at best.
    - The specials work differently because they fufill different roles. The Archer's gets right through a defense, whether of dodging or of shields. The Sharpshooter's has the potential to cause the obliteration of two full teams, spread over a large area that extends behind him in some cases. An opportunity to get out of the way is quite welcome, but even then, that could be taken advantage of. This is less of a stats thing and more of a tactics thing.

    - The crossbow does reload faster than the rifle, but it can't headshot, can it?
    - Bullets don't need to ricochet off of something to hit their targets. They hit what they're aimed at.
    - Your last point is true, though situational. It may be my graphics settings, but I have an extremely hard time seeing anything above the surface when I'm underwater. Perhaps this point doesn't carry as much weight as some of the others?

    Edit: updated for the current version.
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  • TenebrisTenebris Senior
    edited August 2014
    Draulius wrote:

    If I remember correctly only the musket can headshot, and it has a lengthy reload. Not the pistol. Am I wrong?


    I thought that is obvious.


    Archer analysis.
    The Archer's strength comes from his longbow's range, his crossbow's power (at any range) and his short sword's... Er... Ability to block, and deal some damage in close quarters while retaining that ability to block.

    His weaknesses involve low health, a slow firing speed, an inability to deal damage through shields without the crossbow, and no way to block without switching away from his bows. An empty crossbow could be considered a weakness as well.

    Layering these on top of each other, one can conclude that the range offsets his low health, and somewhat his firing speed. The crossbow's shield-breaking power is cut off when it's not loaded, and the short sword, while able to mitigate some damage, will not preserve him forever.

    Team-wise, his lack of health is further made redundant by the presence of Heavy Knights who have it in spades, and cause the enemy to take longer routes around them. His range makes up for their lack of speed, and takes advantage of their area-denial. His inability to deal damage through shields may also persuade enemies with shields to use them, denying them their primary and ranged weapons.


    Sharpshooter analysis.
    The Sharpshooter's strength comes from his rifle's range, his rifle's power, his rifle's ability to headshot with even MORE power, the smoke cloud that really makes it tough to see where he went, the hitscan travel time on his bullets, a faster firing speed than most other things (pistol doesn't have to be charged) and the unpredictable nature of his dagger.

    His weaknesses include very low health, a long reload on his rifle, a smoke cloud that makes it difficult for him to see, an inability to shoot through shields, and the dagger's low damage in an environment that suggests large weapons.

    Layering these over each other, one can conclude that the range and power of the rifle, combined with the hitscan nature of it and the pistol, offset his low health. Hitscan furthers offsets his low health, as he can leave cover, shoot, and get behind cover before a counter-attack takes his head off. The smoke is both an asset and a hinderance, thus, neutral. The dagger is small and weak, but also unpredictable and quick. Like a pirate.

    Team-wise, his low health is often offset by the threat of Skirmishers backstabbing would-be assailants. The power of his rifle can either severly weaken an enemy, making them easy prey for his team mates, or stop them from attacking head-on, creating a hole in their team's defense. It can also persuade enemies with shields to use them, denying them their primary and ranged weapons.


    Special analysis.
    The Archer's special can be achieved with a couple of arrows.
    The Sharpshooter's with a rifle shot and a pistol shot, or a few pistol shots.
    The Archer's special is geared more towards dealing a lot of damage to people in a wide line, while the Sharpshooter's is better at disorienting a larger group, and occasionally launching an enemy skywards.
    Both are useful for their respective teams.


    Closing thoughts. They're different. One's more at home at range, surrounded by metal shields. The other is more adaptable. Effective at long range and out of the way, or swarming with his team mates just out of enemy sword range.

    To respond directly:
    - The fact of bullet spread counts for something when deciding which weapon is easier to aim. Your personal opinion, doesn't.
    - The bow does not have infinite range, though it is longer than that of the pistol. At that sort of range, one should take advantage of the distance, and use the rifle safe in the knowledge that nobody's gonna kill them while they reload.

    - The shortsword may have longer range, but the dagger has attack speed. The shortsword can attack from and be parried in all directions. The dagger is unpredictable.
    - The question of ammo is a tie-breaker at best.
    - The specials work differently because they fufill different roles. The Archer's gets right through a defense, whether of dodging or of shields. The Sharpshooter's has the potential to cause the obliteration of two full teams, spread over a large area that extends behind him in some cases. An oppertunity to get out of the way is quite welcome, but even then, that could be taken advantage of. This is less of a stats thing and more of a tactics thing.

    - The crossbow does reload faster than the rifle, but it can't headshot, can it?
    - Bullets don't need to ricochet off of something to hit their targets. They have hitscan.
    - Your last point is true, though situational. It may be my graphics settings, but I have an extremely hard time seeing anything above the surface when I'm underwater. Perhaps this point doesn't carry as much weight as some of the others?


    Now that's an analysis, clap clap.
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  • amirraz125amirraz125 Senior
    edited 9:16PM
    Sharpshooters' pistol is much easier to hit targets with rather than with the longbow. Also, the rifle deals tons of damage. Sharpshooter is actually a more powerful ranged class than an archer if you can play it right. :archer: :captain:
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  • JollyRogerJollyRoger Members, Senior
    edited 9:16PM
    I personally think when they changed the crossbow to reload faster it wasn't necessary for the power it has behind it,
  • MoonMoon Senior
    edited August 2014
    Draulius wrote:

    Archer and Sharpshooter are of course the two dedicated ranged classes in PVKII. The Archer uses a bow and crossbow, and the Sharpshooter uses a pistol and musket. Despite the technological difference, I have reason to believe the Sharpshooter is inferior and not balanced with the Archer. Here are some simple reasons why...


    I think the two classes are comparable in ability but if I had to give the edge, it would be to sharpshooter actually - although I love playing archer.

    To address your points:
    1) It depends on the range - close to short range, guns have a huge advantage because they can be fired from the hip easily with a good chance of hitting. Medium I'd say roughly about even between the two. Long range again would go to the rifle as a bow / crossbow may require a "test" shot to find the distance and the flight time of the projectile gives the target more time to dodge.
    2) The bow might have a theoretical longer range but due to flight time the chances of hitting a target at longer range decrease dramatically assuming they're not just standing still. I'll give you this one because there is always that chance to hit.
    3) Both weapons have pros/cons as others have pointed out. The dagger is very good at finishing badly wounded opponents with its quick strikes. Also, although the dagger only has one "power" direction which requires walking backwards on the part of the SS - chances are that's exactly what will be happening anyway as they are almost certainly fleeing from another class at closer ranges. The butter-knife can actually be a little bit of a liability in the sense that it feels/looks like it should do more damage than what it actually does and gets an archer like me into trouble with relying on it too much.
    4) They both carry the same amount of heavy-hitters though.
    5) I have to tell you, the number of times I have died while trying to pull that last archer special out of the bag is too many to count. Both are slow, but I'd say the SS has the upper-hand as it is an AoE weapon that not only damages but also blinds. Often times you'll see a good SS fire that special, blow someone into the air and have that pistol ready by the time they land and shoot them while they're still blinded. Put it this way...if you're being pursued by an angry bunch of vikings which would you rather have, a weapon that might kill one and piss the rest off even more or a weapon that can scatter the whole group and give you time to escape?
    6) True on that - but the musket can take someone's head off.
    7) Bullets can be fired from the hip much more easily though and it's much more difficult to tell when an SS is going to pull that trigger versus an archer having to nock the arrow and draw. Skipping arrows can be fun but it's not really a viable tactic in general as chances are your opponent is going to be in the air coming down at you with some kind of large weapon and an angry facial expression. Accidental skip-hits are fun too but exactly that - accidental and therefore rare.
    8) True but as an SS you can "tread water' and shoot from it (at least you can with the pistol). Often times you can catch someone unawares with this tactic.

    To sum up my thoughts: the SS is able to be more maneuverable at close range with hip-shots (which also has the duel effect of not telegraphing the actual moment the decision to shoot takes place), more precise with the potential to do head-shot damage at range, has a built-in smoke grenade type effect especially with the musket, has the ability to stun/kill an entire group of enemies with a special and still retains a means to defend at close-range with strong back-pedal dagger thrusts and to finish off wounded players with quick slashes; this is why I give the edge to the SS.
  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited September 2014
    The archer is much more versatile he is decent at short range great at mid and long range the sharpshooter is only really good at long / med range the headshots i dont really see as a big thing its more of like "if i get a headshot great if i dont oh well i just wanna hit him". They also have the same fire times becose you have to reload the flintlock after each shot less ammo and add to the fact that the archer does waayyyy more damage and bam also when the archer jumps he has no accuracy penalty unlike the SS
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  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited November 2014
    Now that the patch has gone out the argument of "His weapons are easier to use" is no longer valid since its now a projectile also they now all have headshots
    "Everything with a beginning has an end"
  • Ukyo KuonjiUkyo Kuonji Captain Main Senior
    edited 9:16PM
    I think the SS is still better because of the pistol. Still easier to use imo.
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  • SpirrwellSpirrwell That Guy That Knows Things About a Lot of Things Members
    edited 9:16PM
    Not to mention, he can now fire his rifle while in the air, on ladders, above water, and so on. I'll admit, it's a bit odd to get used to the new projectile format, but still SS for me.
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  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited November 2014
    Goodbye wrote:

    Not to mention, he can now fire his rifle while in the air, on ladders, above water, and so on. I'll admit, it's a bit odd to get used to the new projectile format, but still SS for me.
    Archer can fire IN the water
    "Everything with a beginning has an end"
  • SpirrwellSpirrwell That Guy That Knows Things About a Lot of Things Members
    edited 9:16PM

    Archer can fire IN the water

    Yeah, and he could before the update, that was a point already made.
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  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited November 2014
    Goodbye wrote:

    Yeah, and he could before the update, that was a point already made.
    Yup its another area where the archer 1 ups him (Its also illogical)
    "Everything with a beginning has an end"
  • SpirrwellSpirrwell That Guy That Knows Things About a Lot of Things Members
    edited 9:16PM

    Yup its another area where the archer 1 ups him (Its also illogical)

    It's not "another" area, it's just an area. Like I said, it was already pointed out. The SS only gained in this update. The new projectile system can be viewed either way. Once you get used to it, it's just fine. In fact, I find it better with hit registration. He can also switch between iron sights faster than before. The archer on the other hand while gaining a headshot ability had his crossbow damage lowered.
    5GY1DFV.png


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  • Ukyo KuonjiUkyo Kuonji Captain Main Senior
    edited 9:16PM
    Goodbye wrote:

    Not to mention, he can now fire his rifle while in the air, on ladders, above water, and so on. I'll admit, it's a bit odd to get used to the new projectile format, but still SS for me.

    I don't play SS or Archer, so I forgot about that. But it's a very welcome change :)
    76561198022443233png

  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited 9:16PM

    I don't play SS or Archer, so I forgot about that. But it's a very welcome change :)
    I dont think the SS needs a buff at all i just think the archer should not be able to fire underwater
    "Everything with a beginning has an end"
  • JollyRogerJollyRoger Members, Senior
    edited 9:16PM
    Archer has been around forever, players have been mastering him forever in the same maps for a long long time. SS is fairly new and while people will play nothing but SS; the archers have been at it for way longer, some map changes to the three maps people seem to never stop playing make it more interesting.
  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited November 2014
    JollyRoger wrote:

    Archer has been around forever, players have been mastering him forever in the same maps for a long long time. SS is fairly new and while people will play nothing but SS; the archers have been at it for way longer, some map changes to the three maps people seem to never stop playing make it more interesting.
    when you look at the core facts he is less powerful but its cool since pirate classes are designed to support each other the ss is kinda like a more balanced version of the archer imo. Also i didnt see any island changes on the change log
    "Everything with a beginning has an end"
  • SpirrwellSpirrwell That Guy That Knows Things About a Lot of Things Members
    edited 9:16PM

    Also i didnt see any island changes on the change log


    They may be missing from the changelog, but they're definitely there. Like these signs (some that are inconveniently placed as well):

    NdnkOxMl.jpg

    (Full Size)

    And more notably, the Knight spawn:

    CLOYgdIl.jpg

    (Full Size)


    when you look at the core facts he is less powerful but its cool since pirate classes are designed to support each other the ss is kinda like a more balanced version of the archer imo.


    SS4Life.
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  • Ukyo KuonjiUkyo Kuonji Captain Main Senior
    edited 9:16PM

    when you look at the core facts he is less powerful

    I+remember+my+friend+makes+a+pokemon+joke+in+class+_b5ea3ccc78113687beb0d0fe0ffe8baf.jpg
    76561198022443233png

  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited November 2014

    I+remember+my+friend+makes+a+pokemon+joke+in+class+_b5ea3ccc78113687beb0d0fe0ffe8baf.jpg
    He does much more dmg due to the ability to charge shots fast he can spam easier he has more ammo he has no accuracy penalty for jumping he has a better special he can parry medium weapons he can fire his arrows no matter what its easy to see. He is much less of a support class and more of a lone ranger
    "Everything with a beginning has an end"
  • SpirrwellSpirrwell That Guy That Knows Things About a Lot of Things Members
    edited 9:16PM

    He does much more dmg due to the ability to charge shots fast he can spam easier he has more ammo he has no accuracy penalty for jumping he has a better special he can parry medium weapons he can fire his arrows no matter what its easy to see. He is much less of a support class and more of a lone ranger

    Oh? I challenge any veteran archer to fight me as a sharpshooter.
    5GY1DFV.png


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  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited 9:16PM

    Nichi2EditCROP_zpscolnflbv.gifKarenPirate1Crop_zps5ccbfa57.gifNichi1CROP_zpspr3i3epd.gif
    http://steamcommunit...m/groups/aclans Join and be pro today!


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    "I like axes"
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  • Links121995Links121995 Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited November 2014

    He does much more dmg due to the ability to charge shots fast he can spam easier he has more ammo he has no accuracy penalty for jumping he has a better special he can parry medium weapons he can fire his arrows no matter what its easy to see. He is much less of a support class and more of a lone ranger


    The Sharpshooter doesn't have to charge his shots at all. It is not possible to "spam" with a greater or lesser degree of ease if by "spam" you mean "shoot as quickly and as inaccurately as possible". Ammunition is irrelevant, as it's all over the maps and both classes have more than enough to win or die before they run out.

    In situations where I'd have to jump while shooting, I'd probably be in close-quarters combat, and not too worried about accuracy penalties. The specials are not better or worse than each other, they are different, and suited for their respective teams.

    The Archer can parry effectively, the Sharpshooter can strike quickly. I think you mean that "The Archer can fire no matter what, it's easy to see etc." While true, it's not enough to support your argument by itself.

    I wouldn't call the Archer a lone ranger as much as I'd call him a great ranged generalist. The Sharpshooter's more supportive, but equally versatile.
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  • Ukyo KuonjiUkyo Kuonji Captain Main Senior
    edited 9:16PM
    If you're going it alone as an Archer, you're probably doing it wrong. Have fun parrying 3 Viks at once!
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  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited November 2014

    The Sharpshooter doesn't have to charge his shots at all. It is not possible to "spam" with a greater or lesser degree of ease if by "spam" you mean "shoot as quickly and as inaccurately as possible". Ammunition is irrelevant, as it's all over the maps and both classes have more than enough to win or die before they run out.

    In situations where I'd have to jump while shooting, I'd probably be in close-quarters combat, and not too worried about accuracy penalties. The specials are not better or worse than each other, they are different, and suited for their respective teams.

    The Archer can parry effectively, the Sharpshooter can strike quickly. I think you mean that "The Archer can fire no matter what, it's easy to see etc." While true, it's not enough to support your argument by itself.

    I wouldn't call the Archer a lone ranger as much as I'd call him a great ranged generalist. The Sharpshooter's more supportive, but equally versatile.
    He doesn't need to charge his shots but as i said that also means a much lower dmg output and i run out of pistol ammo all the time i feel that his pistol should be made back to hitscan personally. Also if you have played against a good player you know that jumping is unfortunately a huge part of the game i feel like all ranged classes should get an accuracy penalty for it tbh
    "Everything with a beginning has an end"
  • Ukyo KuonjiUkyo Kuonji Captain Main Senior
    edited 9:16PM

    i run out of pistol ammo all the time

    Well that's on you. If you can't aim your shots, then don't play SS. If you can't aim with him anyway, why defend the Archer?
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  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited November 2014

    Well that's on you. If you can't aim your shots, then don't play SS. If you can't aim with him anyway, why defend the Archer?
    I do hit my shots but it takes all the ammo to kill 1 heavy knight or a bezerker lol
    "Everything with a beginning has an end"
  • Ukyo KuonjiUkyo Kuonji Captain Main Senior
    edited 9:16PM

    I do hit my shots but it takes all the ammo to kill 1 heavy knight or a bezerker lol

    Then that's your fault for missing, and not taking advantage of the rifle.
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This discussion has been closed.