Bunny hopping in pvkii is overpowerd

simius · June 2014

Strafe jumping adds a nice dynamic movement ability making the game play more fluent and interesting. You can really use the terrain around you to maneuver - movement is so important in a game like this. However some server have air acceleration allowing you to gain speed midair which doesn't really make you move faster from point A to B but way harder to hit especially in combination with high ping or such. Strafe jumping is great, I love Quake 3 for that matter but I'm not a fan of air acceleration in pvk2, it's up to the server admins to decide though. Most server don't have it enabled.

Just realized there was a second page of this thread. Ye, I agree with cainsith and Uber
Another drawback just came into my mind: When you are in midair you get pushed around more easily, getting hit with a crossbow for example but anything else ahs more impact on you movement too.

Squirrel · June 2014

I was testing how jumping relates to movement velocity (cl_showpos 1) just the other day, and was thinking about how it affects gameplay. Jumping in PVKII is way easier than most other source games, as you don't lose any velocity when landing (compare with Counter-Strike for instance), as well as it adds velocity to the character's movement speed. As a Heavy Knight, whose max running velocity is 190 (units per second), can easily go above 200 given the jumps are timed correctly. One can easily see how this could affect gameplay, as a HK could in theory move as fast or even faster than the Huscarl and Captain. As the class max velocity increases, so does the possible speed gain from jumping.

The colloquial definition of bunnyhopping doesn't really fit jumping in PVKII, but if you choose to define bunnyhopping as a way of increasing, as well as maintaining increased movement velocity, then yes, it's apparent in PVKII. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that bunnyhopping in PVKII is overpowered. As people above me have mentioned, jumping doesn't always work in your favor, it has some drawbacks in certain situations, but if you simply want to move from point A to B, then jumping is definitely a more viable option than just running. This is a mechanic that in my opinion could be questioned, as it is something that neither seems intended nor is taught or acknowledged through gameplay.

I'm open to the idea of a more in depth jumping mechanic that would potentially create additional pros and cons to jumping.

Black Bellamy · June 2014

Squirrel wrote:

I was testing how jumping relates to movement velocity (cl_showpos 1) just the other way, and was thinking about how it affects gameplay. Jumping in PVKII is way easier than most other source games, as you don't lose any velocity when landing (compare with Counter-Strike for instance), as well as it adds velocity to the character's movement speed. As a Heavy Knight, whose max running velocity is 190 (units per second), can easily go above 200 given the jumps are timed correctly. One can easily see how this could affect gameplay, as a HK could in theory move as fast or even faster than the Huscarl and Captain. As the class max velocity increases, so does the possible speed gain from jumping.

The colloquial definition of bunnyhopping doesn't really fit jumping in PVKII, but if you choose to define bunnyhopping as a way of increasing, as well as maintaining increased movement velocity, then yes, it's apparent in PVKII.

However, it doesn't necessarily mean that bunnyhopping in PVKII is overpowered. As people above me have mentioned, jumping doesn't always work in your favor, it has some drawbacks in some situations, but if you simply want to move from point A to B, then jumping is definitely a more viable option than just running. This is a mechanic that in my opinion could be questioned, as it isn't something that either seems intended or is taught through gameplay.

I'm open to the idea of a more in depth jumping mechanic that would potentially create additional pros and cons to jumping.

Imagine a skirmisher using that tactic to move slightly faster it would be like pre nerf skirm very powerful considering movement speed is the 1# most important thing in pvkii

Dinah · June 2014

Personally crouch jumping is my favorite thing about pvk2, pretty much any other source game out there limits movement when you jump, and in a melee game thats just silly.

Looking at the old chivalry the game basically just concisted of moving back and forth, jumping didnt do much good for you as it drained stamina and impaired your movement.
In pvk however jumping is very usefull when combined with air strafing, creating loads of different playstyles for all classes.

Take the skirmisher for example, with airstraifing you can pretty much surf around your opponent and hit him from behind nullifying his block, it does however require practice and timing, its not something you can do anywhere at any time.
Every class can do this in fact.

Jumping also makes you very predicable at times, its pretty easy to guess where your opponent is going to land and hit them right after.

In conclution jumping is something that should'nt be changed or removed im my oppinion, it gives you freedom and increases the skill ceeling.

Links121995 · June 2014

Dinah wrote:

... Limits movement when you jump, and in a melee game thats just silly...

Explain, please.

JollyRoger · June 2014

I know when you crouch and jump just right your character model warps from crouch to stand animation in a very unnatural way and some people know how to consistently jump such a way.

Even though it looks stupid and actually helps; its not OP.

AGSMA · June 2014

The words "bunny hopping" immediately makes me think of this PPG episode.

Spirrwell · June 2014

I am not OP, okay? I have style!

:icon_pirate2:

shabba · June 2014

I think that the ability to bunyhop helps to create a greater variety of playstyles. More playsyles is creating several approaches for each player, which in turn helps to create a more varied gameplay. When it comes to sv_airaccelerate, i think 100 should be built in as a standar value :parrot:

simius · June 2014

Squirrel wrote:

I was testing how jumping relates to movement velocity (cl_showpos 1) just the other day, and was thinking about how it affects gameplay. Jumping in PVKII is way easier than most other source games, as you don't lose any velocity when landing (compare with Counter-Strike for instance), as well as it adds velocity to the character's movement speed. As a Heavy Knight, whose max running velocity is 190 (units per second), can easily go above 200 given the jumps are timed correctly. One can easily see how this could affect gameplay, as a HK could in theory move as fast or even faster than the Huscarl and Captain. As the class max velocity increases, so does the possible speed gain from jumping.
[...] if you simply want to move from point A to B, then jumping is definitely a more viable option than just running [...]

I just looked into it myself once more and I found that jumping isn't really helpfull for reaching another place faster given start and finish are on the same height without any barriers inbetween. The velocity shown (cl_showpos 1) includes the speed you gain by jumping and falling. In fact you have a velocity of about 250 as HK when you jump without moving in any other direction in the first (and last?) millisecond but that doesn't help you travelling any faster. However you probably can achieve greater speed (i.e. longer jumps) by strafejumping properly and obtain it by perfect bunny hopping but you have to keep in mind that your travel distance increases as well when you strafe jump - you curve.
And I tested it as well for a distance I needed 12.2 seconds for with a constant velocity of 260 (flat ground). I wasn't actually able to undercut it with strafe jumps. I didn't bunny hop perfectly though, so I assume it would be about 12.2 as well if you did it perfectly.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway when different heights and obstacles come into play then jumping can certainly make a difference.

schatzmeister · June 2014

If my memory serves me correctly, it is possible in pvkii to change momentum midair, i.e. you can reduce your horizontal velocity, which is certainly a bit erratic because it makes jumps less predictable.

frostwyrm333 · June 2014

I always had problems with players jump attacking me, its very hard to defend against them and it makes it also much simpler to dodge too. Like heavy knight teleporting himself a meter in the air, really...

Black Bellamy · June 2014

frostwyrm333 wrote:

I always had problems with players jump attacking me, its very hard to defend against them and it makes it also much simpler to dodge too. Like heavy knight teleporting himself a meter in the air, really...

Yeah i feel like it makes the heavy knight much faster

Orochi · June 2014

the jump isn't op, It's a mechanism that requires ''practice'' the more you play the more you're comfortable with the movements in GENERAL. The bunnyhopping as you call it is simply the experience of advanced players that knows how to move in the right way. It's simply ridiculous to call it ''OP'', It's like saying people good at the game are op nerf them.

Jerre · June 2014

Aah, i used to get killed alot by BHoppers. And you could always see their in-game moddel warping between the crouch and standing animation. And dealing you alot of damage without building up momentum.

Usually i did was:
- Trying to fight them, it didn't work...
- On the knight's team, staying inside the chest room.
- Disconnecting before death or just going on another server.
- Running away like a coward. Especially with a chest.

ThatOneBox · June 2014

alright... i can't stay silent anymore, this is ridiculous.

for one, "bunnyhopping", as the word is intended, doesn't even exist in anymore. constantly jumping as soon as you land does not increase movement speed. it was in the patch notes quite a while ago. all jumping constantly does is serve to mess with your oppennent. and clearly it worked on you. it may slighty increase the damage of the overhead swing, because of the very tiny momentum boost, but it's negatory. beyond those two things there are no more combat advantages to crouch jumping. (unless you want to consider enviromental movement combat based, but the point is rather moot.). Orochi pretty much covered the point anyways, but reading this thread since it was made and biting my tounge... i couldn't take it anymore, i had to post. please please please re-think your entire perspective on the simple act of crouch jumping in combination with movement.

Black Bellamy · June 2014

Boxxu1337 wrote:

alright... i can't stay silent anymore, this is ridiculous.

for one, "bunnyhopping", as the word is intended, doesn't even exist in anymore. constantly jumping as soon as you land does not increase movement speed. it was in the patch notes quite a while ago. all jumping constantly does is serve to mess with your oppennent. and clearly it worked on you. it may slighty increase the damage of the overhead swing, because of the very tiny momentum boost, but it's negatory. beyond those two things there are no more combat advantages to crouch jumping. (unless you want to consider enviromental movement combat based, but the point is rather moot.). Orochi pretty much covered the point anyways, but reading this thread since it was made and biting my tounge... i couldn't take it anymore, i had to post. please please please re-think your entire perspective on the simple act of crouch jumping in combination with movement.

Dont believe everything you read in those patch notes

Spirrwell · June 2014

Just please Black Bellamy, download some of the older versions of PVKII, play them, and you'll notice the difference instantly. It's plain as day. You don't need any patch notes to confirm it... which are accurate, have you read them?

ThatOneBox · June 2014

Black Bellamy wrote:

Dont believe everything you read in those patch notes

if this is the best response you can come up with then i have nothing more to say to you.

Black Bellamy · June 2014

Boxxu1337 wrote:

if this is the best response you can come up with then i have nothing more to say to you.

Calm down it's a friendly games discussion not politics

Spirrwell · June 2014

Well when you came in questioning the validity of patch notes\changelogs, you did bring in politics on a much smaller scale. Do you not trust the development team or? I don't know how you did it, but this whole thing is making even less sense to me than when you first started the thread. This isn't really my style... but come on man.

Orochi · June 2014

Black Bellamy wrote:

Calm down it's a friendly games discussion not politics

Well it's kinda turning that way. If you tell people not to believe the ''patch notes'', without even a reason, why should I believe you in the first point? If a developer explains to you how the mechanism of jump work and why it isn't OP that's credible, because It's HIS work to make the game balanced. If you keep telling us ''not to believe'' you're not even trying to understand and that's why this isn't a discussion anymore It's just a rant. You got your answers and the opinion of different users which (in my eyes) the major part wasn't on your side and still this ''discussion'' isn't bringing any progress at all, and don't get me wrong I LOVE activity in the forums because they help even us Beta Testers and Devs to grow and get new Ideas perhaps, but not this kind of discussion, not when you answer with a ''don't believe what's written in the patch notes'' well if you don't trust the PVKII team which really gives A LOT to the game developing (and yes they are normal guys just like you) then you wouldn't even deserve an answer, even if you already got it.

Black Bellamy · June 2014

Orochi wrote:

Well it's kinda turning that way. If you tell people not to believe the ''patch notes'', without even a reason, why should I believe you in the first point? If a developer explains to you how the mechanism of jump work and why it isn't OP that's credible, because It's HIS work to make the game balanced. If you keep telling us ''not to believe'' you're not even trying to understand and that's why this isn't a discussion anymore It's just a rant. You got your answers and the opinion of different users which (in my eyes) the major part wasn't on your side and still this ''discussion'' isn't bringing any progress at all, and don't get me wrong I LOVE activity in the forums because they help even us Beta Testers and Devs to grow and get new Ideas perhaps, but not this kind of discussion, not when you answer with a ''don't believe what's written in the patch notes'' well if you don't trust the PVKII team which really gives A LOT to the game developing (and yes they are normal guys just like you) then you wouldn't even deserve an answer, even if you already got it.

The notes said you can no longer climb the trees on island (you can) and they also contain unlisted changes such as the captains speed nerf and animation changes ect patch notes for any game never explain 100% what they did which is why people go into the files to look at what they really changed in games like tf2 ect....Anyway dont know why your getting so defensive over this lol its not that serious (Also getting back to the topic look at Squirrels post it definitely still dose something)

Nive · June 2014

I had a problem with them at first, but I was tempered by their harsh jumps and fluid blows to my personage and grew anew, a man destined to slay my aerial foes. That's how I remember it anyways, back when I played.

I have a question though, for the learned of this community: might there exist some illegitimate tactic used to increase one's jump-height?
I swear there were few who seemed to be able to make impossible, unprecedented jumps the likes of which were only accomplished by those I knew to do them. Jumps I couldn't reproduce myself.

ThatOneBox · June 2014

Bandwagonman wrote:

I had a problem with them at first, but I was tempered by their harsh jumps and fluid blows to my personage and grew anew, a man destined to slay my aerial foes. That's how I remember it anyways, back when I played.

I have a question though, for the learned of this community: might there exist some illegitimate tactic used to increase one's jump-height?
I swear there were few who seemed to be able to make impossible, unprecedented jumps the likes of which were only accomplished by those I knew to do them. Jumps I couldn't reproduce myself.

i've had skirmishes run directly at me in a straight line while i'm standing still and they jump over my head. i don't think it's a bug or illegitimate, it's just a seriously time jump... hard to pull off. but i wouldn't say i've seen anything illegitimate.
i don't mean to question your uhm... expierence with the game, but this thread had made me quite cautious lol... you do know about the crouch jump yes? that will make it seem the enemy is jumping higher.

Dinah · June 2014

If im not mistaken getting hit while jumping makes you fly higher, it seems to happen from time to time where i can jump over someones head as i block or just take a hit midair.
When playing pub i always get flak for jumping for some reason, personally i think its one of the most important mechanics of the game, effectivly it gives you a hard to predict form of dodging.

Since everyone can do it at anytime i dont really see how its a problem, any class can pull it off. Of course faster classes benefit from it more, but in turn they are weaker in terms of damage and health which again makes them worse at trading blows.

The current movement system in pvk is absolutely my favorite on the source engine, tf2, nmrih, cs and so on always seem to limit the ways you can move, like disabling jumping when crouching.
One of my favorite things to do is to just crouch and use A and D while moving my mouse back and forth, basically mimicing a bhop. Bhops in pvk however dont make you any faster, they just look silly and dont contribute anything to combat.

Jumping however does something, but its not bhop, you can crouch jump just as someone attacks and hopefully dodge his attack and airstrafe back to him or just avoid him entierly. Also airstrafing to bait attacks works well.
Dodging is sadly affected by ping a lot. Most of the time when i play with a high ping I.e 80+ dodging is just less viable, weapon reach and client side vs server side makes it harder to pull it off.
Also a tip, always crouch jump, there is no reason not to, jumping normally is not usefull for anything basically, crouching midair gives you a higher jump with more mobility.

Thats all i can say really, i dont think there is any problem with the movement of the game only class balance.

lillemakken · July 2014

HopLikeABunny wrote:

Do you not trust the development team or?

Oh man! At least a few of us non-ass lickers were right about one particular developer lately

In the end, I trust Crazytalk the most.

TrojanClinique · July 2014

The only thing which is overpowered in PVKII.

Is Denshin

Denshin · July 2014

I'd rather say, was.

KNUDA.knatch · July 2014

So jumping is overpowered now? Oh my. Complain about something that's actually stupid like auto parry before you set your sights on basic movement. Jumping is fine.

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