Another darn balance-screwing update...

"Pirate Captain
- Decreased cutlass start attack speed"
I mean, what the hell?? Captain never was an excelent class for professional competition/clanwar on master level playing and neither was an easy on medium/begining or low-skill level playing, and even neither a great team supporter... He is already a class that is least usable in a game, which is awful/outclassed at any kind of role, offense, defense, support and heavy tank. Sure, he has most max health/armour compared to other classes, but he is still terrible in fair fight with other offensive class such as gestir, yet he is the easiest to kill as ranged/archer class as he doesn't really have long range weapons (blunderbus doesn't count as any, and parrot dies before it reached enemy), not really good speed, no shield and really short range melee with no so great damage, which as well makes it really hard or almost impossible to fight huscarl (especially who is good at throwing tomahawks as it a good ranged weapon) or HK on master level playing. Captain is far away from being an really valid/viable class to play, and yet with each update he gets only worse... I miss ol' good PVK 2.2 where he wasn't overpowered, YET he really was a good offensive class, as his movement speed was obviously much better and his blunderbus wasn't just a joke/very-situational garbage or just holding for special (and even special back then was more serious and couldn't be dodged that easy as now), and his melee is easy outparried and it's really, REALLY hard to parry heavy weapons such as twoaxe of huscarl and bigsword of HK, which similar to skirmisher's melee (well, maybe sliiiiightly better than that). Now, captain is terrible at offensive, defensive, tanking or even supporting... However, to compensate the decreased cutlass start attack speed you would need atleast increase it's really short range to turn atleast to be more viable at defensive and heavy kind of role, however I really do not want to turn captain in to tank/heavy HK in pirate team (neither I really think pirates need one, it's absolutely diffirent role play classes team). So I do really want to see some improvement for captain, be it increase in movement speed like in old good days so he could be atleast compatible with new berserker in a fair match and maybe some other impowement as making his blunderbus or increasing his primary melee range. Well, maybe I would just like him turning to be the way he was in 2.2, as I really felt he was *perfect* back then and I still think this way. I know he is the only class you can paint (regardless of how much achiements you have done) and name your exclusive support weapon, but it's not a good excuse to make this class underpowered and make it be least playeble class in game. image' />

Yet, I do really disagree with developers how awfully they balance the game with each update, without even doing professional testing as they have re-balance it over and over and over again and almost never fix things that were obviously broken. Just look on what they do to the gestir spear, gestir already was somewhat broken due it's easy parring and fast attack system almost same as skirmisher, yet with his large range he could PUSH enemies away which makes him almost unreacheble at master level playing, but however instead of fixing it and nerf the range, they INCREASED it which makes him even more broken class... *facepalm*

Yes I know my english is not perfect, but I'm aint native english speaker either.
«1

Comments

  • Major ChulainMajor Chulain Senior
    edited November 2013
    well i agree with everything you said
    if that means anything
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  • edited 12:20AM
    I agree with everything you said in dat Text.

    PVK is a slowly dying game. Today, barely a hand full of people playing when you consider that at times of 2.2, more than 500 people spread over 30 - 50 servers were playing.
    It makes me really sad that I have to watch since 2007, as the game is gradually destroyed.
  • ColonelColonel Finger Lickin' Good PVKII Team
    edited November 2013
    I am very optimistic about the future for pvkii. That is based off what I know, what we are working on now, and what we plan on making so. 2014 will be a big year for the game, as we build a great platform to finally send out frequent updates. We're grinding away at what will be one of our best updates to date, and from there we'll use steampipe to further sculpt the best experience.

    Thank you for the support guys. I feel I must step in to tell you more about how the light at the end of the tunnel will be very bright. We're in this to pack a huge punch. I hope you will be there with us to celebrate.

    Co-Lead | Level Designer

  • NiveNive PVKII Team
    edited 12:20AM
    Colonel, you excite me.
  • CrazytalkCrazytalk Terminator PVKII Team
    edited 12:20AM
    Yes, our next update is going to be amazing...

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  • ThatOneBoxThatOneBox Senior
    edited 12:20AM
    heard all this before
  • SpirrwellSpirrwell That Guy Members
    edited 12:20AM
    Well, I'll be perfectly honest, I was a bit disappointed with 2.6, and I could really only hope that PVKII will get better. I do agree that the Captain has just really taken a beating in his abilities. I've only been around since 2.4, but I did get the chance to go back and play the game in versions 2.2 and previous.

    Even though I never got the chance to play the older versions with anybody I am a bit disappointed at what's been removed and changed.

    But enough about that. The Captain has been reduced in speed and attack speed and yet his cutlass is not qualified as heavy melee weapon. Now, I've heard some reasoning before that the Captain's cutlass swings too fast for the amount of damage it does. For reference, the Berserker's bigaxe does ever so slightly more damage than the cutlass, yet it swings faster, it has higher range, the Berserker is faster, and to top it off, can't be perfect parried by anybody except the HK, and even that can be negated by the Berserker's special.

    I personally think there's no excuse for the Captain to either have his cutlass qualified as a heavy weapon, or give him his speed back, or both. Also to clear this up, the Captain does not have most health\armor compared to other classes. As a matter of fact, the ratio of armor to health of the Captain is significantly lower than that of the HK, and is also lower than the Huscarl's. Which, the Huscarl's two handed axe is about the same as the cutlass in terms of speed as it has a faster attack speed and lower starting attack speed which kind of balances out overall, but it has higher range and damage. The Huscarl is also the same speed as the Captain. I just can't make any sense of it.

    Maybe a poll should be made. I'm sure many people agree that the Captain should be changed. As a matter of fact I have never seen a poll on this forum. I mean, it's not my game, I don't own it, I don't develop for it, but I and others can certainly share our opinions on it!
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  • PaladinPaladin Senior
    edited November 2013
    So basically the community wants the combat system, class stats and old voices of 2.2 back again in the next update.
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  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited November 2013
    Boxxu1337 wrote:

    heard all this before


    You also thought SS would never come out :P


    I personally think there's no excuse for the Captain to either have his cutlass qualified as a heavy weapon


    You'd be very very surprised.

    There is a strange assumption going on that Captain has been nerfed into the ground but I'm watching Captains still wreck faces daily. He has quite a bit of hidden power in his swings for a medium class weapon and can finish off quickly with a blunderbuss. The attack speed reduction wasn't large by all means. And just like all games that have balance if the hyperbole that they bring up comes true (so far it hasn't) then it doesn't mean it can't be adjusted.

    Paladin wrote:

    So basically the community wants the combat system, class stats and old voices of 2.2 back again in the next update.


    If the same 2-3 people who always jump on any change and play exclusively on arena/cath = the community then yes

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  • Major ChulainMajor Chulain Senior
    edited 12:20AM
    lel
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  • SpirrwellSpirrwell That Guy Members
    edited 12:20AM

    There is a strange assumption going on that Captain has been nerfed into the ground but I'm watching Captains still wreck faces daily. He has quite a bit of hidden power in his swings for a medium class weapon and can finish off quickly with a blunderbuss. The attack speed reduction wasn't large by all means. And just like all games that have balance if the hyperbole that they bring up comes true (so far it hasn't) then it doesn't mean it can't be adjusted.

    It's not assumption that his speed has decreased, that his attack speed has decreased and that all of PVKII has been subject to change before. I'm not saying that the start attack speed reduction was large, I'm simply saying that with the collective changes, the Skirmisher is closer to a Captain than the Captain. And sure, the Captain can wreck people, but then we get into the argument of "a pro can do this, and blabla," as has happened in the past on here.

    I don't think it's fair to say that the Captain doesn't at least deserve a reassessment. As long as I have been here since 2.4, in each update he has had a decrease of some kind. What was wrong with him? Especially with the release of the SS, which now increases the diversity of the Pirate team, can't believe I used that word for a game, I wouldn't think at all that it would hurt balance to have him back to the way he was in some way.

    Also there's always going to be a complaint from somebody for each update, however it doesn't mean that it's an irrelevant one. Perhaps I'm wrong, maybe the Captain shouldn't be changed, all I ask is that it be at least considered.
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  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited 12:20AM

    Perhaps I'm wrong, maybe the Captain shouldn't be changed, all I ask is that it be at least considered.



    And just like all games that have balance if the hyperbole that they bring up comes true (so far it hasn't) then it doesn't mean it can't be adjusted.


    I threw this line in here partially for that reason. All balancing and the state of the class is always considered each update, that was why the adjustments that occurred, well, occurred some of which could be surprising while others not.

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  • AmerikaAmerika Honkey Senior
    edited 12:20AM
    If you don't like the changes in the stats of a class, then you should learn to compensate for their increase/decrease of power by adjusting your playing style. It's that simple. "OH NO AS AN ARCHER I CAN NO LONGER TAKE DOWN A HUSCARL LIKE I USED TO IN MELEE WHEN ARCHER FIRST CAME OUT. YOU RUINED PVKII BECAUSE I REFUSE TO ADJUST MY PLAYING STYLE TO COMPENSATE FOR THE CHANGE IN STATS TO PROVIDE A MORE BALANCED GAME."
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  • MrMohoMrMoho Senior
    edited November 2013
    While I do agree that the Captain could use a buff it shouldn't be in the form of something simple like increasing his speed or health or something.

    The Captain, in my eyes, is a guy who has (or should have) the most variety of all classes.
    My buff would be to just increase that variety like giving his Blunderbuss an actual knockback to counter his slow speed when trying to get away. And also, why not also make it so that when you are airborne the knockback will also be applied to you (like the Force-a-Nature in TF2)?

    Hell, how about giving his fully charged punch a stun that can be followed by an instant hook? That would give him a somewhat effective and hilarious option to deal with Heavy Knights.

    Shirleys, why stop there? Why not give the person who kills his parrot a debuff that slows him down, giving the captain a chance to get in close enough in order to get a hit with his short ranged, yet poweful weapon?

    Jesus Christ, I'm having a ideagasm! Somebody, stop me!
  • SpirrwellSpirrwell That Guy Members
    edited November 2013
    Amerika wrote:

    If you don't like the changes in the stats of a class, then you should learn to compensate for their increase/decrease of power by adjusting your playing style. It's that simple. "OH NO AS AN ARCHER I CAN NO LONGER TAKE DOWN A HUSCARL LIKE I USED TO IN MELEE WHEN ARCHER FIRST CAME OUT. YOU RUINED PVKII BECAUSE I REFUSE TO ADJUST MY PLAYING STYLE TO COMPENSATE FOR THE CHANGE IN STATS TO PROVIDE A MORE BALANCED GAME."

    It's not that simple. Say the Skirmisher's speed was doubled and now say "you should learn to compensate for his increase of power by adjusting your playing style." I don't believe anybody here has a problem with adjusting their playing style, they're concerned with the balance. I'm sure that the beta testers and developers have similar discussions about balancing the game. Why shouldn't we be able to discuss it even if we have no power over it?

    Now I'm not trying to twist your words and say that you're saying we shouldn't discuss it, I'm simply saying that's kind of how it comes out as, that it's not our place to have an opinion. Even you are entitled to your opinion, I just don't believe that a game that constantly changes to balance the game could be considered balanced, otherwise, why would it be necessary to change at all? Does what I say make sense to anyone?
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  • TurdsackTurdsack Senior
    edited 12:20AM
    yes
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  • bERt0rbERt0r Senior
    edited December 2013
    I do agree that the flintlock is acting strange sometimes. At the very least, the crosshair-circle does not seem to represent the spread where the shot can land. Strangely I feel to hit flintlock shots a lot easier with high ping (>150). I also feel it is harder to hit when standing still compared to just stopping quickly for the shot (shooting while slowing down).
    Imho skirmisher is the strongest class in the game anyway so I don't want balance changes here. Dinahs however may get frustrated by this. On the other hand, these dinahs overuse the flintlock anyway and never swing their cutlass, I fear for PVK if you make it easier to use (kite heaven). I would like to know if the crosshair is actually representing of the flintlocks possible spread or not and if a more representing crosshair would be possible.
    Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes, somthing to something, Yaarrrrrgh!
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  • SpirrwellSpirrwell That Guy Members
    edited 12:20AM
    Well in PVK 2.2 the flintlock was dead accurate, I was playing it with somebody a few days ago, my God, that flintlock was a nightmare to be against! But anyway, did you mean to post in the other thread that was talking about the flintlock?
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  • simiussimius Senior
    edited 12:20AM
    As it stands the easiest way to compensate this would be to give him at least a velocity of 200

    But I really like Mrmoho's ideas:
    Blunderbuss knockback both ways, punch stun (like a weak sword shield combo with no defence, with an adjusted reasonable punch speed), and a bird that makes your aim a bit shaky (archer) and/or slows you by 10 when attacking.
  • MS32MS32 Server Owner Senior
    edited 12:20AM
    I agree with most of the OP.

    Captain (as you can probably tell by my p.p) is possibly my favourite class, I play as it the most.

    I usually defeat most people on CQC with the Captain, he is very powerful and damn fun to play, but as soon as you meet an Archer who knows what he's doing, it's usually game over. Unless you are in a position where you can use environment or your team to evade the longbow shots, you usually end up dead. This is because, if you chase after the archer, you are too slow to catch up to him, especially when taking damage repeatedly (remember, no shield or way to deflect arrows). On the other hand, if you run away from the archer, he will just run after you, keeping up with no problem. With some good aim, he can easily take you down.

    He is the only class with this niche weakness against archers. The others can either use speed to get away (Skirmisher), counter-attack with accurate ranged weapons (SharpShooter), or use a shield (the rest).
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  • AsmundrAsmundr Senior
    edited December 2013
    But I really like Mrmoho's ideas:
    Blunderbuss knockback both ways, punch stun (like a weak sword shield combo with no defence, with an adjusted reasonable punch speed), and a bird that makes your aim a bit shaky (archer) and/or slows you by 10 when attacking.

    Pushback for the captain when using the blunder? While i dont know whether its senseful in every situation (escape situations it would be ofc) Im sure it would look rediculous and doesnt really fit.

    AND, pls dont buff dis killerbird, it's already op (^^). Im more a fan of getting score points when killing them!
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  • simiussimius Senior
    edited 12:20AM
    It just depends how impactfull the pushback would be and how the animation would look. I'm currently considering only a fairly small, credible pushback. Might not always be usefull but still interesting to consider.
    After all the captain could use a small buff. As I said movespeed buff would be the most obvious one but not the most interesting change.
  • Major ChulainMajor Chulain Senior
    edited December 2013
    Didn't the blunderbuss have a pushback in 2.2? pretty sure it had a small one and that worked out quite well.
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  • FencerFencer Senior
    edited December 2013
    The only thing the captain can do reasonably well right now is defending chests on booty maps. His slowness is somewhat negated, the parrot is useful in chaotic battles, and his special is great at crowd control. But as soon as you want to go after the other teams, you'd better switch back to one of the other classes.

    On any map that isn't a bt_ he's simply not useful enough. Over hundreds of hours I don't think I've ever seen a captain dominate a lts_ quite like I've seen every other class do. As soon as a very good player switches to captain he instantly becomes much more killable. Not saying situational classes are bad, these are just my observations for what they're worth.
    you break all my thing you KILL my family, you knoeckd over my scanner
  • AfroamericanAfroamerican Senior
    edited December 2013

    I am very optimistic about the future for pvkii. That is based off what I know, what we are working on now, and what we plan on making so. 2014 will be a big year for the game, as we build a great platform to finally send out frequent updates. We're grinding away at what will be one of our best updates to date, and from there we'll use steampipe to further sculpt the best experience.

    Thank you for the support guys. I feel I must step in to tell you more about how the light at the end of the tunnel will be very bright. We're in this to pack a huge punch. I hope you will be there with us to celebrate.


    Thank you. What does this have to do with the topic and the balance discussion? (BTW: The game is free. Are you trying to make me buy it? Your text sounds like it, hahaha. I have it installed already.)

    Crazytalk wrote:

    Yes, our next update is going to be amazing...


    Sounds good, but what does this have to do with the topic and the balance discussion?

    Paladin wrote:

    So basically the community wants the combat system, class stats and old voices of 2.2 back again in the next update.


    Who was talking about the voices and the combat system?


    You also thought SS would never come out :P



    You'd be very very surprised.

    There is a strange assumption going on that Captain has been nerfed into the ground but I'm watching Captains still wreck faces daily. He has quite a bit of hidden power in his swings for a medium class weapon and can finish off quickly with a blunderbuss. The attack speed reduction wasn't large by all means. And just like all games that have balance if the hyperbole that they bring up comes true (so far it hasn't) then it doesn't mean it can't be adjusted.


    What does individual player skill have to do with a constant stats nerf for a certain class?

    :icon_viking2:
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited December 2013

    What does individual player skill have to do with a constant stats nerf for a certain class?


    I don't seem to understand this. Are you saying there are 5 people controlling the Captain like Voltron or something? Because it isn't unusual that it would be watched how players perform in addition to internal testing of classes how they perform with their team composition or even in the odd dueling involved.

    Did you read the change log for Captain for SS patch? Looked like compensations were done and that special change was pretty huge. "Constant" indeed...


    Captain
    - Cutlass is a bit slower but does more damage.
    - Blunderbuss has a limited range for its pushback.
    - Special shot now passes through teammates.


    Balancing a class that has a medium class weapon but hits hard is a continuous effort.

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  • SoloableSoloable Senior
    edited 12:20AM
    I've noticed the Captain does an insane amount of damage now ( I think even more than before? :icon_pirate2: )

    Give Captain Lower damage with Cutless and make it count as a 2-h to parry 2-h weps or keep it the same, I'd prefer the 2-h option though because of the Man At Arms coming..

    Imba for Captain Special sends out 5 parrots at the target pls :icon_restless:
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited 12:20AM
    Soloable wrote:

    Give Captain Lower damage with Cutless and make it count as a 2-h to parry 2-h weps


    I personally think there's no excuse for the Captain to either have his cutlass qualified as a heavy weapon


    You'd be very very surprised.

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    "I like axes"
    --kokoronokawari
    loli loli loli loli loli loli loli loli

  • MS32MS32 Server Owner Senior
    edited 12:20AM
    Soloable wrote:

    Give Captain Lower damage with Cutless and make it count as a 2-h to parry 2-h weps or keep it the same, I'd prefer the 2-h option though because of the Man At Arms coming..


    No, balance issues aside, even from a basic realism standpoint this idea is folly. I'm, by no means, implying PVKII tries to be realistic, but there are at least some commonsensical elements to the combat, which make it so simple yet powerful. The main one being; you can only p-parry weapons that are the same size or smaller than yours, where the size is determined by the number of hands required to hold it.

    It doesn't make sense (from a logical standpoint) that a one handed cutlass could possibly parry the force behind a massive two-handed claymore/axe.
    From a class-balance point of view it gets even worse. Allowing the already mega-powerful Captain to stand an even better chance against Husky's, HK's or Zerks will render him pretty much OP in the field of melee battle.

    In my opinion, a well played Captain is extremely powerful in combat, and does well in Booty maps.
    But, as someone previously mentioned, he tends to fair poorly on other objective maps. And I, too, notice that skilled players die more, and kill considerably less when playing as Captain. Could this be due to a class balance issue? Or inexperience from the player?

    The only way you can perfectly balance classes/weapons is by getting experienced players, investing hundreds and hundreds of combat hours, testing every possible scenario several times.
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  • AfroamericanAfroamerican Senior
    edited December 2013
    I fully agree with the points "MS32" mentioned. I can't see how a weapon like the Cutlass could perfect-parry something like the HK's two-handed sword. And at the moment, you are already able to parry it, just not perfect-parry. I think this is pretty realistic, since one would be able to parry, but the sheer force and impact of the two-hander would probably cause some damage.
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