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Your facepalm picture accurately sums up how I feel about this comment. Read my previous posts for full details.
EDIT: Sorry for doublepost.
I mean of course, who could possibly think otherwise? This one European clan is surely proof that all of Europe is more skilled and therefore has a better grasp of game balance!
You can hardly call anyone "pro" because there isn't some MLG scene for PVK. There are players who are great at the game and those that aren't so good. In a sense, the only difference between one player and another is time invested, and everyone learns at a different pace. On top of that, extended use of game mechanics doesn't mean a player has any greater an understanding as to how those mechanics are or should be properly balanced. In the case of someone crying OP, I've barely seen any consider how change in the class they're complaining about would affect the flow of the game itself, or how it would impact the team as a whole. Sure, let's nerf the Archer because some people complain about how the smallest percentage of players in the game make the class nigh insurmountable, and forget that literally every other class can be brought to the same level by similar people.
Those that raise these sort of issues are typically tunnel-visioned and don't undertand that changing the class at its core affects the game's integrity as a whole when it comes to team structure and their intended role vs. the other teams.
Also I'm pretty sure that skill =/= knowledge of proper game balance. You could be terrible at PVK and have the reasoning to make proper design choices. You could also be a "pro" and have the worst possible idea of game balance in the world. Unless you're a game dev or a tester, you probably haven't spent as much time as them doing number crunches and playtests to make a class relatively statistically perfect in opposition of all the others.
Rule #1: Have fun. [incredulous gasping ripples throughout the room]
That concludes Funtime Class! We didn't have the funding for a lengthy seminar. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Stop by again for our next lesson: "Heavy Knight's Heaving Heart: How to Write Poetry for Swords!"
That being said, back on topic.
The archer isn't OP at all. It's just the player who knows the ins and outs of the class that makes it good. I can recall countless times where i've been up against an amazing archer and still won because I was able to outwit them or used tactics they weren't used to against them. There have even been times where I steamrolled an entire team full of archers and sharpshooters as a berserker. In the hands of a good player any class can be deadly. But this game is also about teamwork, which some people tend to forget
If someone is too strong you should be working together with your team to stop them. if you work and move as a team it shouldn't be hard to take em down. Running blindly by yourself into a group of knights and getting killed by an archer doesn't make them OP. It just means you've made careless decisions.
All that being said, it would be better to have named this thread "Tactics against archers?" rather then trying to nerf a class in which we all have played and tested quite a bit.
QUOTE (Trojan•Clinique @ Nov 8 2011, 08:06 PM)
@ Jan 12 2012, 08:16 AM)
Denshin is a rather overpowered class.
QUOTE (Lucas
We're currently working on making Denshin less OP.
The problem with the archer is that he's very difficult to balance. I agree he's a little too strong. But there's a fine line between him being absolute shirley and absolutely OP. Consider the fact that there are 7 other unique characters in the game and hopefully our less-than-perfect balancing scheme looks a little better to you. We're not perfect and we'll never be.
What if the archers bow charge worked similarly to the gestirs javelin? Nothing would change about the way he moves, shoots, reloads, or his damage. He could still shoot you in midair, still jump around like a retard. *BUT* every time he jumps with an arrow drawn, his charge bar loses say, 1/4th of it's power. This way, when you've finally closed the gap between you and an archer, he can still jump around to defend himself/evade strikes, but he won't be drilling you with fully charged arrows while doing it.
Sound good?
That being said, good idea. Just for as long as he doesn't make up the lost charge in the next 0.5 seconds.
My opinion is.. >> I think the Archer is OP. In what degree, I do not know.
Actually, it does. Clanmembers fighting rival clanmembers have as long as I've been in a clan, tried to become better than their opponent or everyone else for that matter. Not only is this mental competitive spirit there, but there's often requirements joining clans. For example -HW- demands you to have 350 hours of playtime at least and about 15 hours in the last two weeks. New members seeking to join clans join exactly because they seek a more competitive arena, they want to be a part of and resemble a team of skilled individuals. As of 2013, this competitive scene has become more silent, but it's not too long ago there were more active clanwars.
It doesn't necessarily has to mean somebody earns money or compete for money in tournaments. We use "pro" to distinguish the top percent from the rest. Call them whatever you see more fitting, but "pro" is a quick word to get the message across to whom we speak about.
No, No, No! That may be correct for most other things, but not games in general and especially not PVKII. You CANNOT be terrible at PVKII and have the reasoning or the right ideas to make proper design choices. And likewise you cannot be one of the best players and have the worst game balancing ideas. You must understand -how- the game works in detail to come up with the right balancing ideas and you obtain such information by studying actual gameplay, playing it yourself, spectating and/or studying game stats. This is exactly why the suggestion threads aren't exactly helping the developers pushing PVKII in the right direction because most of the players discussing and opening threads in this section have barely got 300 hours of playtime. These players doesn't have the faintest idea on how things are further up the skill ladder, and if they knew, I bet you all my play hours they would cancel 70 % of their threads regarding balancing and new ideas.
Of course we should encourage new players to be active forum members. Of course, I'm all for that. Go ahead. But these players should take a comfortable chair and sit down when discussing balance at this level.
I'm playing Chivalry:Medieval Warfare. I have 223 hours. I would never in my dreams go on the Chivalry forums and begin huge balancing threads, come up with suggestions for X or Y based on my 200 hours! It's ridiculous, it's downright stupid! But I see an increasing trend in doing so on the PVKII Forums. One has 250 hours and they're already balancing experts and should join the developer team accompanied by their superior ideas. More or less, Skill is exactly equal to knowledge of proper game balance.
Please. These hand-me down beginner tips stops working when you see a certain skill level, it's laughable if anything.
One of the main problems here is that very few of you have seen first-hand what we're talking about when we say 'Archer is OP'.
And by god I'd love to put you doubters up against some of the best Archers I've seen on Arena stacked in one team. Go Vikings or Pirates, it's all fine.
For example we can say we put "Major Chulain" as Archer. "Bullet-Dodger". "Dawn". "ev1l|Jack". "Trojan*Clinique" and "Mighty Mick". All these plays join the Knights team and go Archer. Good luck everyone. Good game and good luck, no really. Good luck.
Haha, do you all even have any idea how devastating-- you know let's just quit talking about this
He obviously meant these forums. The threads in this forum section. Not this particular thread, you understand that much.
Well, it WAS a duel game as well I tell you. Dueling was perfectly fine before we moved to Orange Box. There were no "reaching" back then, no rate fiddling that would give you any advantage in the same way, or any ISP/Location advantages as you see now. Can't duel anymore since 2.3.
You wanna win and beat your opponents? Use a combination of having uTorrent on, change "rate" "cl_cmdrate", "cl_updaterate" and "cl_interp" values. That's how you win. And then there's some lucky individuals that are localized "perfectly" away from the server locations, providing them subtle advantages such as reaching and unable to get hit without changing rate values.
And any experienced player won't swallow "Good Archer = OP? Hey, Good Skirmy = OP, Good Huscarl = OP". You can be a very strong Huscarl like Hellsten. Huscarl isn't OP. Only beginners throw "OP" at any class played by an experienced veteran. The players that has 1000 hours and more knows better.
Finally, I'm going to end my long post with a side note. I'm not seeking to enter the USA vs. Europe debate, but I'll leave this here;
Correct me if I am wrong, but there has been two "official" PVKII tournaments (US and EU participated).... The first one was won by ev1l|Jack, clan leader of -HW- and his partner T.I.M.'P, member of -HW-.
The second tournament was won by (I can't recall if this was a 2v2v2, or single player tournament so apologizes if I forget the partner), but was won by TheManOfWar AKA Major Chulain, founder of -Holy Warriors- converted from "Darpak"'s original [OWN] clan, -HW- clan owner for 5 years, and finally founder and current owner of [TBR], TheBloodyRighteous.
- lillemakken
- Reaching enemies beyond your weapon model isn't a problem(you're just bad at dodging!)
- Archer isn't overpowered
- Higher post count is equivalent to higher skill, experience and knowledge in-game
Wilson already mentioned
Just to further mention, I and a few others were in it but we eventually just dropped out by choice because of how poorly organized they were, the odd lag that happened on occasion, and fighting foreign ping being a determinant of skill was silly.
I think you missed this part...
The three main current threads, not just one
http://steamcommunit...m/groups/aclans Join and be pro today!
"I like axes"
--kokoronokawari
loli loli loli loli loli loli loli loli
Anything posted from this point about who's better, stronger, smarter, or has the biggest penis will be hidden. Warnings and suspensions handed out accordingly.
Now, give me some feedback about my archer idea, or post some ideas of your own.
Yeeaah... Doesn't sound bad at least. Or what Chulain said; not being able to fire and jump at the same time. I mean, have you held a real bow and pulled the arrow back on the string? If you jumped, the arrow would bounce up from the hand it's resting on and could also lose it's grip on the string. It's just so unrealistic, think about it, who jumps and fires a bow? Personally never seen it anywhere, probably won't either.
And the Archer SHOULD have his loaded bow & arrow cancelled when getting bashed! This feature should have been implemented a long time ago, but instead what happens is that the Huscarl (or whatever holding the shield) is now vulnerable to the STILL loaded arrow because for some odd reason bashing makes the shield transparent and arrows can fly through it.
When a grown up man slams his shield against your bow and loaded arrow, the bow would either break, you would drop the bow, the arrow would break or a combination of all three. But this is a little too much for PVKII so the Archer should at LEAST have his loaded arrow cancelled, come on!
- Reaching enemies beyond your weapon model isn't a problem(you're just bad at dodging!)
- Archer isn't overpowered
- Higher post count is equivalent to higher skill, experience and knowledge in-game
Agreed.
The problem with removing his ability to jump at any point is that he very quickly becomes a pointless character to play. Without his fluidity of movement in tact, the archer is just a sitting duck. We've grown fond of his ability to fend for himself over the years. He's a "weak" class that can be deadly without help and the sharpshooter was designed to require support. This is the cardinal difference between the two.
I could see changes such as removing his ability to fire midair working, though, jumping should not cancel his draw.
My opinion is.. >> I think the Archer is OP. In what degree, I do not know.
---
Well, having a clan in a small community game doesn't make someone more competitive @_@[/background]
---
Actually, it does. Clanmembers fighting rival clanmembers have as long as I've been in a clan, tried to become better than their opponent or everyone else for that matter. Not only is this mental competitive spirit there, but there's often requirements joining clans. For example -HW- demands you to have 350 hours of playtime at least and about 15 hours in the last two weeks. New members seeking to join clans join exactly because they seek a more competitive arena, they want to be a part of and resemble a team of skilled individuals. As of 2013, this competitive scene has become more silent, but it's not too long ago there were more active clanwars.
---
Great job inb4! You can make baseless assertions as to the skill level of an entire nation!
I mean of course, who could possibly think otherwise? This one European clan is surely proof that all of Europe is more skilled and therefore has a better grasp of game balance!
You can hardly call anyone "pro" because there isn't some MLG scene for PVK.[/background]
---
It doesn't necessarily has to mean somebody earns money or compete for money in tournaments. We use "pro" to distinguish the top percent from the rest. Call them whatever you see more fitting, but "pro" is a quick word to get the message across to whom we speak about.
---
Also I'm pretty sure that skill =/= knowledge of proper game balance. You could be terrible at PVK and have the reasoning to make proper design choices. You could also be a "pro" and have the worst possible idea of game balance in the world. Unless you're a game dev or a tester, you probably haven't spent as much time as them doing number crunches and playtests to make a class relatively statistically perfect in opposition of all the others.[/background]
---
No, No, No! That may be correct for most other things, but not games in general and especially not PVKII. You CANNOT be terrible at PVKII and have the reasoning or the right ideas to make proper design choices. And likewise you cannot be one of the best players and have the worst game balancing ideas. You must understand -how- the game works in detail to come up with the right balancing ideas and you obtain such information by studying actual gameplay, playing it yourself, spectating and/or studying game stats. This is exactly why the suggestion threads aren't exactly helping the developers pushing PVKII in the right direction because most of the players discussing and opening threads in this section have barely got 300 hours of playtime. These players doesn't have the faintest idea on how things are further up the skill ladder, and if they knew, I bet you all my play hours they would cancel 70 % of their threads regarding balancing and new ideas.
Of course we should encourage new players to be active forum members. Of course, I'm all for that. Go ahead. But these players should take a comfortable chair and sit down when discussing balance at this level.
I'm playing Chivalry:Medieval Warfare. I have 223 hours. I would never in my dreams go on the Chivalry forums and begin huge balancing threads, come up with suggestions for X or Y based on my 200 hours! It's ridiculous, it's downright stupid! But I see an increasing trend in doing so on the PVKII Forums. One has 250 hours and they're already balancing experts and should join the developer team accompanied by their superior ideas. More or less, Skill is exactly equal to knowledge of proper game balance.
---
If someone is too strong you should be working together with your team to stop them. if you work and move as a team it shouldn't be hard to take em down. Running blindly by yourself into a group of knights and getting killed by an archer doesn't make them OP. It just means you've made careless decisions.
All that being said, it would be better to have named this thread "Tactics against archers?" rather then trying to nerf a class in which we all have played and tested quite a bit.[/background]
---
Please. These hand-me down beginner tips stops working when you see a certain skill level, it's laughable if anything.
One of the main problems here is that very few of you have seen first-hand what we're talking about when we say 'Archer is OP'.
And by god I'd love to put you doubters up against some of the best Archers I've seen on Arena stacked in one team. Go Vikings or Pirates, it's all fine.
For example we can say we put "Major Chulain" as Archer. "Bullet-Dodger". "Dawn". "ev1l|Jack". "Trojan*Clinique" and "Mighty Mick". All these plays join the Knights team and go Archer. Good luck everyone. Good game and good luck, no really. Good luck.
Haha, do you all even have any idea how devastating-- you know let's just quit talking about this
---
Ctrl+F "troll"
Ctrl+F "nóob"
Ctrl+F "idiot"
Only found what you typed.[/background]
---
He obviously meant these forums. The threads in this forum section. Not this particular thread, you understand that much.
---
This is not a duel game either. Good Archer = OP? Hey, Good Skirmy = OP, Good Huscarl = OP, etc.
Poop is situational and how to counter them is situational which makes PVK2 an interesting game to play beyond just "rock paper scissors" when it comes to classes and fighting.[/background]
---
Well, it WAS a duel game as well I tell you. Dueling was perfectly fine before we moved to Orange Box. There were no "reaching" back then, no rate fiddling that would give you any advantage in the same way, or any ISP/Location advantages as you see now. Can't duel anymore since 2.3.
You wanna win and beat your opponents? Use a combination of having uTorrent on, change "rate" "cl_cmdrate", "cl_updaterate" and "cl_interp" values. That's how you win. And then there's some lucky individuals that are localized "perfectly" away from the server locations, providing them subtle advantages such as reaching and unable to get hit without changing rate values.
And any experienced player won't swallow "Good Archer = OP? Hey, Good Skirmy = OP, Good Huscarl = OP". You can be a very strong Huscarl like Hellsten. Huscarl isn't OP. Only beginners throw "OP" at any class played by an experienced veteran. The players that has 1000 hours and more knows better.
Finally, I'm going to end my long post with a side note. I'm not seeking to enter the USA vs. Europe debate, but I'll leave this here;
Correct me if I am wrong, but there has been two "official" PVKII tournaments (US and EU participated).... The first one was won by ev1l|Jack, clan leader of -HW- and his partner T.I.M.'P, member of -HW-.
The second tournament was won by (I can't recall if this was a 2v2v2, or single player tournament so apologizes if I forget the partner), but was won by TheManOfWar AKA Major Chulain, founder of -Holy Warriors- converted from "Darpak"'s original [OWN] clan, -HW- clan owner for 5 years, and finally founder and current owner of [TBR], TheBloodyRighteous.
- lillemakken
It is really aggravating fighting a jumping-bean of an Archer at melee-range and just get pin-cushioned to death with fully charged arrows.
I have a feeling his sword is just a touch too good as well, and I'm not raging at being buttered up good, It's my reaction to doing the buttering. I used to be "really swell" at dueling Skirms with the butterknife alone.
Granted, they weren't super leet haxor Skirms, but they weren't dinahs either.
I still feel like what I was doing wasn't in the right, though.
Mmm...... Can you name three very good Archers?
- Reaching enemies beyond your weapon model isn't a problem(you're just bad at dodging!)
- Archer isn't overpowered
- Higher post count is equivalent to higher skill, experience and knowledge in-game
Digital Killer, DiG1tal K1LL3r, D|G|T4L K|LLER
Funny ;p
- Reaching enemies beyond your weapon model isn't a problem(you're just bad at dodging!)
- Archer isn't overpowered
- Higher post count is equivalent to higher skill, experience and knowledge in-game
I feel as if Archer shouldn't be able to get their special so quickly and so easily.
For example, the Archers bow gives a normal amount of the special meter. The crossbow ( If I remember ) gives the archer half their special meter and knocks the target back while doing a significant amount of damage.
Tbh, I think the Archer should not get as much ( If any ) of their special meter with the crossbow, as it is too powerful and annoying to counter.
I've had times where when I get close to an archer, it'd be he gets a couple of shots with his bow earlier in the game
Then it'd be Crossbow knocks back > Special straight after = Dead. Which I find quite frustrating and hard to counter.
So I feel as if rather than changing reload speeds and such and the archer firing arrows in mid air, you could change the Special Meter and how it works for an archer. As I feel that is what makes the Archer have a somewhat slight edge.
- longer reload time with xbow
- longer animation when pulling out xbow (bow+xbow combo can be pulled off too quickly)
- reduced accuracy when shooting in air (especially xbow)
it would be pretty much adapted to the ss but I reckon it could work
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MOBO: MSI Z87M GAMING
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Imo its either adapting xbow to the sniper as I said or lowering the xbow damage
Not stronger, faster. I stand by that and no amount of arguing in the world would change my mind, ever, except maybe when MAA is released. But the whole lessen the damage of the crossbow\less special per hit I understand.
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MOBO: MSI Z87M GAMING
CPU: Intel® Core™ i7-4770K OC'd @ 3.7 GHz
GPU: EVGA GTX 660 Ti
RAM: Ripjaws X 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 2133MHz
OS: Windows 10 Technical Preview
Ahh okey, so stronger then
- Reaching enemies beyond your weapon model isn't a problem(you're just bad at dodging!)
- Archer isn't overpowered
- Higher post count is equivalent to higher skill, experience and knowledge in-game