Issues Concerning the Sharpshooter

Soloable · July 2013

Seems every time I play the Sharpshooter, I keep running into these "Little issues" that aggravate me somewhat

The first issue,
( Has been said before ) is the sharpshooter not being able to shoot while falling or jumping. Seems unfair since the archer can shoot in the air yet a sharpshooter can't. Or at least, I can't

The second issue,
That little animation that plays when holding the pistol, when I'm in a desperate situation, I don't scope down on my weapon, I just fire without aiming, yet this distracting animation that plays every so often is very annoying. Don't know if anybody else has had problems with this. Its when he "Looks" at his pistol and looks at the side of the pistol.

The third and last issue,
Is range, I'm not sure if its just me or not ( Since I don't play Sharpshooter very often ), that the pistol has a considerably bad range.
Meaning I have to get close to my enemies, yet the archer does not.

So let me list just how much the archer compares to these issues.

The Archer can shoot while in the air

The Archer doesn't have an animation on his bow, that causes distraction

The Archer's bow can shoot across the map, while the Sharpshooter's pistol cannot.

The Archer has a 1-h weapon that deals a considerable amount of damage and can perfect parry Small Weapons, while the Sharpshooter cannot.

The Archer's bow pushes targets back slightly, the pistol does not, the archers crossbow pushes targets back a considerable amount, yet the Sharpshooter's barely pushes them.

Sure, archers don't do as much damage as the sharpshooter, but I'd take what I listed above anyday over an increase in damage.

Do you Agree? Disagree? Your opinions?

Nive · July 2013

When you say he can't shoot while in the air or jumping, you mean with his rifle, right? Because while that's true, he can shoot his pistol while jumping.

His pistol's idle animation is kind of.... screen-blocky, but I never minded it.

And his pistol's range is actually really good, you just need some practice. It's a hit-scan weapon, so you don't need to lead your target, just aim the retical on them and click.
It took me a while to get a feel for it, but I played the Sharpshooter nonstop when he came out. For at least 8 hours straight the first day.

Peepeewilson · July 2013

The two are not meant to fill the same void within their respective teams. Our game has no symmetry in that way. Some characters seem similar, but none are meant to mirror each other.

The sharpshooter was designed to be a glass cannon, while the archer serves as a source of sustainable ranged DPS. In general, the pirates are supposed to have low-defensive characteristics with higher burst damage qualities. The knights are probably the most traditional team; each character fills a very different role, and the vikings are very utilitarian. Admittedly, we could've been more creative in how we designed the vikings...

But I think the pirates are fine. Most players who spend some time as the sharpshooter warm up to him. He just takes a little more finesse than the rest.

Denshin · July 2013

I'd want to shoot while in midair with the rifle as well.

Though I am still very convinced, the sharpshooters dagger is pretty darn dangerous, most people don't bother to parry it so you can get in alot of good hits. The hits themselves don't do too much damage but that quickly adds up, one should also remember to time a quick block to avoid losing 50% of that health in one blow.

Soloable · July 2013

Bandwagonman wrote:

When you say he can't shoot while in the air or jumping, you mean with his rifle, right? Because while that's true, he can shoot his pistol while jumping.

His pistol's idle animation is kind of.... screen-blocky, but I never minded it.

And his pistol's range is actually really good, you just need some practice. It's a hit-scan weapon, so you don't need to lead your target, just aim the retical on them and click.
It took me a while to get a feel for it, but I played the Sharpshooter nonstop when he came out. For at least 8 hours straight the first day.

Well actually, I just joined a game with a friend, the range actually wasn't as bad as I thought. But still, comparing it to archer, it still runs short

Peepeewilson wrote:

The two are not meant to fill the same void within their respective teams. Our game has no symmetry in that way. Some characters seem similar, but none are meant to mirror each other.

The sharpshooter was designed to be a glass cannon, while the archer serves as a source of sustainable ranged DPS. In general, the pirates are supposed to have low-defensive characteristics with higher burst damage qualities. The knights are probably the most traditional team; each character fills a very different role, and the vikings are very utilitarian. Admittedly, we could've been more creative in how we designed the vikings...

But I think the pirates are fine. Most players who spend some time as the sharpshooter warm up to him. He just takes a little more finesse than the rest.

While I agree that the Two classes are not meant to fill the same void and aren't supposed to be the same way, they are similar, so comparing them is fine. The Sharpshooter feels more like a clunky version of the archer, with a few motifications, rather than a glass cannon.

Soloable · July 2013

Denshin wrote:

I'd want to shoot while in midair with the rifle as well.

Though I am still very convinced, the sharpshooters dagger is pretty darn dangerous, most people don't bother to parry it so you can get in alot of good hits. The hits themselves don't do too much damage but that quickly adds up, one should also remember to time a quick block to avoid losing 50% of that health in one blow.

Its so dangerous, yet so easy to evade away from, sort of like the Berserkers Blade & Axe Combo.

simius · July 2013

Soloable wrote:

The second issue,
That little animation that plays when holding the pistol

I mentioned it in the "small suggestions" thread. It covers a big part of the screen and is right in the middle.

Pistol range seems reasonable to me.

I wouldn't mind being able to use the sniper as kind of a blunderbuss while jumping. Jump = very low accuracy + can't use iron sights

Mr. Ownage · July 2013

Only problem I have is that he does not have consistent attack directions, except for the stab.

Soloable · July 2013

simius wrote:

I mentioned it in the "small suggestions" thread. It covers a big part of the screen and is right in the middle.

Pistol range seems reasonable to me.

I wouldn't mind being able to use the sniper as kind of a blunderbuss while jumping. Jump = very low accuracy + can't use iron sights

Exactly what I was talking about, the pistol covering the screen is very annoying, and only gets in the way
And yes, I agree with the Rifle jumping.

KOKORONOKAWARI · July 2013

Pistol range is good as is

But the jumping while shooting with rifle really should be possible

Peepeewilson · July 2013

KOKORONOKAWARI wrote:

But the jumping while shooting with rifle really should be possible

I think so too, but not with the same level of accuracy. You shouldn't be able to iron-sight midair. And jumping whilst already looking down the iron-sights should instantly zoom you out.

ThatOneBox · July 2013

the thing people fail to realize is the main point of the sharpshooter is his rifle, in my opinion. countless times i jsut see people shoot the rifle at the beggining of the round then never reload it. if anything, you should be taking shots with rifle, and reloading after as soon as possible, and basically jsut using the pistol as a backup/specail filler. when your specail bar is 60-80% full (depending on headshot or not) you're not gonna wanna use another rifle shot to fill that up. with the archer, his crossbow is his secondary weapon, but i think it's the opposite with the SS. his rifle is his primary.

Inb4 · July 2013

I would say the Sharpshooter is a disappointing 'rival' to the Archer, as Archer has a much better shot to shot recovery time and his longbow is superior in every way (range included) to the Sharpshooters arsenal. Archer is much more deadly. You wont be seeing a small group of 2 or 3 Sharpshooters dominating an entire server as you see with Archers.

Links121995 · August 2013

One can not fire the Rifle while in flight, this is true. I do not feel that this is an issue as I have little reason to jump around while trying to aim such a powerful weapon. It has a lengthy reload time and hip-shots on the ground don't always connect. Mid-air shots would hit their targets even less.
Jumping around with the pistol decreases its accuracy. All jumping would accomplish is a lowered effective range on either the pistol, or an airborne Rifle.

When an enemy is close enough to you for "desperate" to apply to your situation, they will take up a large portion of your screen. One does not need a crosshair at such a range.
If you are referring to desperate situations where you desperately need to shoot a player at a moderate distance, then I agree. The animation may ruin your shot. You could avoid this issue by scoping in, and ensure a better shot than if you had fired without scoping in, regardless of the idle animation.

I had a quick test of the pistol's range. If an enemy is casually making sure that the gate control on the Pirate's side of the Knight's base on bt_Island works, and you are about to cross the brige, but want to shoot them a few times, your pistol has the range for that if you zoom in. If you don't zoom in, your shot has a much greater chance of missing. If you back up a few steps, your pistol will cease to have any effect other than filling your vision with smoke.

The Longbow, Crossbow, and Rifle all have much greater ranges, though the Rifle seems able to work at much greater ranges than the others.

I feel that as a Sharpshooter, your job is to put out consistent damage with your pistol from a safe distance. This is entirely possible. An enemy team would have to undergo a map-wide chase to catch you, and once they have, they may find that you've chipped apart their armor and health pools.
The pistol has a relatively high ammunition count, a low reload time, medium-long range and Pirate-tier damage. A solid weapon, with a clear strength, and a clear weakness. It's good for being fired multiple times, but it will not deal enough damage fast enough in close-quarters. The price of hitscan at range, in a melee-based game.
The Rifle has higher damage, can headshot for extra damage, has a long reload time which prevents you from moving, what seems to be a range so great that one will almost never have to take it into consideration, and half as much ammunition as the pistol. A weapon with a clear purpose. Massive damage. Massive damage on the weakspot, if you're feeling skilled. Not to be used on targets with armor, lest the damage be wasted. Though a headshot may be used against a Heavy Knight to take away a significant portion of his life-supporting armor.

In a comparison of the Archer and the Sharpshooter, I find that the Archer's greater, more consistent damage at range is (for the Sharpshooter) divided between the Sharpshooter's very powerful head-exploding Rifle, and his less powerful but simpler and more accurate pistol. While the Archer is the only reliable source of damage for his team (what with Heavy Knights being kited, of all things) the Sharpshooter is not.
In fact, the Sharpshooter is more of a support class. Very effective in short bursts, but only moderately helpful (in comparision) over longer periods.

That knife can block attacks. It can hit a bunch of times while the enemy is recovering from the backswing of their wasted attack. Cornering a Sharpshooter is by no means the end of the encounter.

Spirrwell · August 2013

Peepeewilson wrote:

I think so too, but not with the same level of accuracy. You shouldn't be able to iron-sight midair. And jumping whilst already looking down the iron-sights should instantly zoom you out.

I disagree about the iron sight, especially about jumping zooming out that sight afterward. You may just be lining up a shot from afar, you jump for whatever reason and oops your chance to shoot is gone. I think the pistol is perfect the way that it is. I think that the rifle should take on some of its aiming properties such as not being quite as accurate while firing from the hip while still being decently accurate. Jumping would decrease that accuracy and jumping while scoped shouldn't decrease accuracy as much just like the pistol.

I believe that the pistol range is fine the way that it is. You can aim pretty far especially considering flintlocks aren't very accurate to begin with. I do have one minor complaint with it though other than the animation. When you run out of ammo and you pick up some more, you have to reload the pistol, but you can't reload it with "R," You have to reload it by firing. It either should be automatically loaded or it should be reloaded by pressing "R."

ThatOneBox · August 2013

Links121995 wrote:

One can not fire the Rifle while in flight, this is true. I do not feel that this is an issue, however, as I have little reason to jump around while trying to aim such a powerful weapon. It has a lengthy reload time, and hip-shots on the ground don't always connect. Mid-air shots would hit their targets even less.
Jumping around with the pistol decreases its accuracy. All jumping will accomplish is a lowered effective range, on the pistol, or an airborne Rifle.

When an enemy is close enough to you for "desperate" to apply to your situation, they will take up a large portion of your screen. One does not need a crosshair at such a range.
If you are referring to desperate situations where you desperately need to shoot a player at a moderate distance, then I agree. The animation may ruin your shot. You could avoid this issue by scoping in, and ensure a better shot than if you had fired without scoping in, regardless of the idle animation.

I had a quick test of the pistol's range. If an enemy is casually making sure that the gate control on the Pirate's side of the Knight's base on bt_Island works, and you, as a Sharpshooter, are about to cross the brige, but want to shoot them a few times, your pistol has the range for that, if you zoom in. If you don't zoom in, your shot has a much greater chance of missing. If you back up a few steps, your pistol will cease to have any effect, other than filling your vision with smoke.

The Longbow, Crossbow, and Rifle all have much greater ranges, though the Rifle seems able to work at much greater ranges than the others.

I feel that as a Sharpshooter, your job is to put out consistent damage with your pistol from a safe distance. This is entirely possible. An enemy team would have to undergo a map-wide chase to catch you, and once they have, they may find that you've chipped apart their armor and health pools.
The pistol has a relatively high ammunition count, a low reload time, medium-long range and Pirate-tier damage. A solid weapon, with a clear strength, and a clear weakness. It's good for being fired multiple times, but it will not deal enough damage fast enough in close-quarters. The price of hitscan at range, in a melee-based game.
The Rifle has higher damage, can headshot for extra damage, has a long reload time which prevents you from moving, what seems to be infinite range, and half as much ammunition as the pistol. A weapon with a clear purpose. Massive damage. Massive damage on the weakspot, if you're feeling skilled. Not to be used on targets with armor, lest the damage be wasted. Though a headshot may be used against a Heavy Knight to take away a significant portion of his life-supporting armor.

In a comparison of the Archer and the Sharpshooter, I find that the Archer's greater, more consistent damage at range is (for the Sharpshooter) divided between the Sharpshooter's very powerful head-exploding Rifle, and his less powerful but simpler and more accurate pistol. While the Archer is the only reliable source of damage for his team (what with Heavy Knights being kited, of all things) the Sharpshooter is not.
In fact, the Sharpshooter is more of a support class. Very effective in short bursts, but only moderately helpful (in comparision) over longer periods.

That knife can block attacks. It can hit a bunch of times while the enemy is recovering from the backswing of their wasted attack. Cornering a Sharpshooter is by no means the end of the encounter.

the rifle does not have infinite range. it just cuts off after a certain point.

simius · August 2013

Links121995 wrote:

The animation may ruin your shot. You could avoid this issue by scoping in

You often don't want to shoot, you just wanna see what's going on there. If the HK changed his direction and is running towards you now for example, or to see the archer shooting at you. You have to scope and loose movement speed

Hopper wrote:

the rifle does not have infinite range. it just cuts off after a certain point.

Well, the range is longer than any map I've played. I'm pretty sure you can hit player who are as big as the red dot of the crosshair due to the distance

Links121995 · August 2013

simius wrote:

You often don't want to shoot...

You're a Sharpshooter. You have, as I stated, a weapon well-suited for shooting.

simius wrote:

...you just wanna see what's going on there. If the HK changed his direction and is running towards you now for example...

The Pistol's animation cannot obscure that unless the Heavy Knight is miles away from you. Otherwise, his tall profile and iconic sword betray his position and orientation.

simius wrote:

...or to see the archer shooting at you. You have to scope and loose movement speed.

Or you could run. Additionally, you may feel more comfortable in the encounter if you jump, reducing your aim more than if you were moving without scoping.

KOKORONOKAWARI · August 2013

Peepeewilson wrote:

I think so too, but not with the same level of accuracy. You shouldn't be able to iron-sight midair. And jumping whilst already looking down the iron-sights should instantly zoom you out.

Not sure how to feel about this since Archer is able to aim his xbow well with in his jumps. It is a powerful combination attack to do that is often underestimated. Being able to do this with the rifle will buff SS nicely and the only real buff I'd give him currently. This is also helpful against being specialed and you can't shoot the rifle since it suspends you somewhat in the air but Archer isn't encumbered by this issue. Though honestly, I don't think anyone should be able to shoot while stunned/specialed.

But something else...

Because he can't shoot in the air, he can't shoot his rifle while on ladders/ropes/etc =(

Links121995 wrote:

Or you could run. Additionally, you may feel more comfortable in the encounter if you jump, reducing your aim more than if you were moving without scoping.

Depending on their distance I may jump to shoot. If they shoot their arrow in a pattern I can stop for a split second to shoot then move after dodging. If they are very low and dashing towards me to melee I may just kite and shoot without aiming (if they are not in immediate range to melee me but close). It varies greatly the situation and who you are fighting.

simius · August 2013

Links121995 wrote:

You're a Sharpshooter. You have, as I stated, a weapon well-suited for shooting.

I don't see a connection to what I said.

The pistol certainly can obscure all sorts of things during that animation. Otherwise we wouldn't mention it. It's not that big a deal though.

Links121995 wrote:

Or you could run. Additionally, you may feel more comfortable in the encounter if you jump, reducing your aim more than if you were moving without scoping.

Or I could go make a coffee and do some pullups but that won't show me what's covered behind the pistol during that animation either. Scoping in does by canceling the animation. I wasn't talking about fighting the archer.
I agree by the way, scoped shooting with the pistol in midair is pretty effective in close combat. You don't even loose speed through scoping if done properly. The ability of dodging archers projectiles while the archer can't dodge his makes the ss a viable opponent in medium range.

ThatOneBox · August 2013

the sharpshooters rifle can't cross from vikings spawn over to knights spawn on catherdral. you gotta look closely, but it cuts off. fro mthe stairs over to the immidiate kngihts spawn.

simius · August 2013

I played that map once (on cap1's server I believe); A big bridge with cars driving on it. You were able to hit with the sniper an opponent on the far side of the bridge which was like two or three times as long as cathedral. Maybe you can't see the trail with certain video settings.

Wintersunn · August 2013

I think the sharpshooter is perfectly balanced at the moment, he fits very well in the pirate team. I think people are just complaining or are having issues with him because he is not as easy as the archer.

Once you got used to his arsenal, especially the dagger, you can be as dominating as you are with the archer.
But I dont think that you are even supposed to be as strong with the sharpshooter since pvk is still a teambased game and a support class.

Inb4 · August 2013

Whenever I see a Pirate team win (particularly on LTS maps) almost none of it is attributed to the effort of one or more Sharpshooters. On the opposite, I would count the efforts of Archers to a Knight victory a LOT more. I would say the Sharpshooters skill:effectiveness ratio is way off, requiring a lot more skill to be effective to the point where the class is underpowered. I think the long rifle should produce less smoke, it should reload slightly quicker and his dagger should actually be a somewhat reliable backup weapon when out of ammo. A class requiring such precise movements and shots is difficult to master in the fast placed gameplay of PVKII, and thus I think the Sharpshooter needs to be revisited.

Spirrwell · August 2013

Inb4 wrote:

Whenever I see a Pirate team win (particularly on LTS maps) almost none of it is attributed to the effort of one or more Sharpshooters. On the opposite, I would count the efforts of Archers to a Knight victory a LOT more. I would say the Sharpshooters skill:effectiveness ratio is way off, requiring a lot more skill to be effective to the point where the class is underpowered. I think the long rifle should produce less smoke, it should reload slightly quicker and his dagger should actually be a somewhat reliable backup weapon when out of ammo. A class requiring such precise movements and shots is difficult to master in the fast placed gameplay of PVKII, and thus I think the Sharpshooter needs to be revisited.

...The dagger is great, the smoke is perfect, and the reloading time is short enough. I barely use him, but when I do, I can usually rack up a lot of points very quickly on bt based maps. On lts, he's just likely to be surrounded and killed like with any slower class. You just got to be cautious. Dagger->swing->do damage->block->take less damage->repeat. Rifle smoke->use to conceal yourself from afar while reloading. As for the reloading time, the blunderbuss, the rifle, and the crossbow have a fairly close reload time even if the rifle is a bit longer, so I don't see what the problem is.

And I just want to say this about the phrase "it's a team game" that's been brought up time and time again by people. It's hard to play as a team when playing as team in battle gets you killed. I've been pushed off edges, I've been pushed into arrows, I've been pushed into pointy metal objects that cause great pain, and the like. When you're focusing on the objective like capturing chests and carrying the trinket it's not as bad, but tw and lts are killing based and it's still hard to be a team. Even in bt it's hard when you are in a battle before you can get to a chest.

Sorry to go on that off topic rant, but every time it gets mentioned that it's a team game, I'm probably gonna bring that up. Teammate bumping, PLEASE REMOVE\FIX!

Anyway, I think the Sharpshooter is fine the way he is for the most part. I think that after using the archer for so long the Sharpshooter weapon functionality throws you off. He's not supposed to be his Pirate opposite.

Inb4 · August 2013

"I got x kills with y class, so y class is fine" Is not a valid argument because there are so many factors that make up you being successful at a class; the efforts of your teammates, the skill (or lack of) the enemy team and of course the map, all factor in to the success and effectiveness of a class. Sharpshooter is a difficult class to learn and not much is gained from it, your post doesn't invalidate anything of what I said in my previous post.

KOKORONOKAWARI · August 2013

SS is a high risk high reward and i honestly find him shine better outside of the typical arena/cath maps. As I said the only thing he really needs is to be able to jump shoot his rifle. Anything more would be too much. The reason Archer and Heavy work nicely in conjunction is because Knights have two extremes, one ranged and one tank strong melee. Pirates require less SS to be effective support class (you do not need many glass cannons especially without a "true" tank on Pirates) than Archer does with Heavies.

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