Reason why we made the slowest class slower?

I'm a TurtleI'm a Turtle Senior
edited October 2012 in PVKII Discussion
Combat and Game-Mode Changes

- Shield bash now has a short cooldown.
- Large weapons are now generally slower to charge up but have faster swings.
Class Balance Changes

Heavy Knight
- Claymore is slightly slower but does a bit more damage.

Waht? The knight seemed fine before the latest update other than the bastards bunnyhopping everywhere as HK. The sword speed just needed a little nudge in the speed department. But now, the 2 main things that the HK survives on are now slower than a turtle with a piano strapped to its back.

- Shield bash now has a short cooldown.
I can understand why this was nerfed, but you guys should have at least increase the damage to the huscarls sword a tiny bit. The knight can barely bash off any lawn mowing zerker, let alone hit him with his sword due to the short range of the sword.

- Large weapons are now generally slower to charge up but have faster swings.
Heavy Knight
- Claymore is slightly slower but does a bit more damage.

These two nerfs do not mix together with the heavy knight. What we've created now is a World of Warcraft style tank. First the slower charge up/ lifting his weapon up god awfully slow.

Against Sharpshooters, or skirmishers: Obviously the 2 classes will out run the HK and out gun the HK. Pretty damn hard to kill the frisky buggers, even if you have a shield out, they can easily shoot your shield off with a single rifle shot and about 7-8 pistol shots while backpacing. Running away from these bad boys only makes you an easy target for a headshot or slash spammed in your back.

Against Zerkers: The competant lawn mowers decimate pubby HKs now. And retaliation against zerkers is mostly "charge swing to full bar or zerker will parry easily, while charging the zerker gets in 2-3 hits on you, then you strike, repeat." Unless you bunnyhop all over the place and luckily dodge the enemy attacks. Running away from a zerker isnt an option since they'll out run you and wreck you up.

The best tactic now for HK is to have a pocket archer behind him and absorb most of the hits while the archer reaps most of the damage. Possibly parry all their hits (or luckily) land 2-3 hits on the enemy while the archer rittles them with arrows.

Comments

  • CrackpunchCrackpunch Senior
    edited October 2012
    You're saying the best tactic being team work like it's a bad thing. HK still works fine and can keep pace with the SS long enough to slaughter him.

    I don't know what you're on about bunny hopping for either, as it doesn't work.
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  • I'm a TurtleI'm a Turtle Senior
    edited October 2012
    Its bad because the HK was able to hold its own weight in a fight before the newest patch (Other than backpacing skirmishers, but thats a no brainer).

    The regulars are still getting top scores but their score are only 1/2 of their usual point count. Good HK players before usually would have 60+ points in the first two rounds, now they have barely 32 from what i've seen.

    Also i found it insanely easy to kill HKs this patch than the last, all you have to do is swing 3+ small attacks at them while they fully charge 1 swing, dodge, repeat. Or another way is to fully charge attacks, interrupt them for parrying his obvious attacks, then attack again. If done right, he'll possibly only land 1 or 2 good hits on you before you kill him. Its disgusting how degraded the HK got after the patch.

    Bunny hopping does work, its just you probably dont hang around on the booty servers too much. Its easy to bunnyhop with a high ping and land charged hits. (No not that jump repeatedly in a straight line bunny hopping, but jumping off of stairs and small ledges and instantly flanking the enemy CONSTANTLY)

    Notice this is very early in phase of the community adapting to the newest patch. I'm hoping that the players will get better with the HK (Or the devs revert him back to normal), but those hopes are very slim due to how nerfed the HK has gotten.
  • CrackpunchCrackpunch Senior
    edited 1:58AM
    A. New patch, new players. Those players will try the HK and get slaughtered because they're new.
    B. The dodging you're describing is not bunny hopping. That's skillful use of the jump function.

    You're blowing the speed nerf way out of proportion. I barely noticed it. You're making it sound like the HK got softer too. The only thing to change is his slight attack speed nerf (possibly countered by the swing speed buff) and a damage buff.

    Shield bash was nerfed because it could be used to basically disable the opponent. It still works to knock enemies away, it just can't be 'abused' anymore.

    I did notice that this patch is very new. It's funny you mention this, because you're complaining before the community has had time to adjust.

    Give it a month, then make threads like this (or don't, please). Because as it is, it's not the end of days.
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  • I'm a TurtleI'm a Turtle Senior
    edited October 2012
    I still say these HK changes are not going to settle well. I wouldn't have put up this thread if i knew the changes were going to be good in a month or so. That's why this is the first complaint i've had with a patch that PVK2 set out since 2007. And yes, to me the HK has gotten softer. I'll bet you a cute little turtle that in a month or so, the HK will still be getting owned by everyone in an order of "Getting owned by- Pyramid:

    Top (Mostly being destroyed by)
    Sharpshooter, Skirmisher
    Zerker, Gestir
    Huscarl, Captain
    Bottom(Least)

    And this "ownage" will be much more drastic in comparison to last patch.

    (P.S. No im not Knight Biased. Mainly Viking Biased. Sadly the vikings are finding little effort in killing HK's lately. And if a viking can kill an HK easily, that means a pirate can decimate them in barely a minute.)
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited October 2012
    Don't know what to tell ya, while I may not completely agree on the changes, I am fighting other classes fine in melee as HK...

    Needs more time for people to adjust for the time being~

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  • shayologoshayologo Senior
    edited October 2012
    I think change are good and it's not the real probleme.

    The probleme is the sharshooter in LTS
    Right HK can't catch sharshooter (same for hsucarl), decrease his attack speed don't change anything
    Sharshooter must have less ammo starter and decrease his accuracy when he don't aim with pistol
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited October 2012

    I think change are good and it's not the real probleme.

    The probleme is the sharshooter in LTS
    Right HK can't catch sharshooter (same for hsucarl), decrease his attack speed don't change anything
    Sharshooter must have less ammo starter and decrease his accuracy when he don't aim with pistol


    Shield, chase. He will eventually run out of ammo or get cornered being forced to melee for the moment. This is easier during sudden death as well. It wouldn't make sense if a primary ranged user is slower than a HK, he would have to be tankier, a melee weapon like huscarl/HK, or be able to one shot most classes like it was PVK1 as a form of balance lol.

    Reduce his ammo? It is his main form of attack, which is why his dagger isn't like archer's sword in terms of versatility. He is super squish as a result for being able to have some kiting ability.

    His accuracy is lower when he doesn't aim...

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  • DenshinDenshin Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited 1:58AM
    When the change was first put in the dev build, I really didn't like a slower hk, but as time has passed I've just adapted and I find that the heavy knight is just as reliable as before :D

    QUOTE (Trojan•Clinique @ Nov 8 2011, 08:06 PM)
    Denshin is a rather overpowered class.

    QUOTE (Lucas =) @ Jan 12 2012, 08:16 AM)
    We're currently working on making Denshin less OP.
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  • I'm a TurtleI'm a Turtle Senior
    edited October 2012

    Don't know what to tell ya, while I may not completely agree on the changes, I am fighting other classes fine in melee as HK...

    Needs more time for people to adjust for the time being~


    A sharpshooter who actually knows how to play his class would never shoot without ironsights, unless he really needed to. Also those sharpshooters out run almost all of the melee based classes other than the zerker or gestir.

    Using shield doesn't help too much, just takes longer for the sharpshooter to put you down. Yes, you're not supposed to run in a straight line towards the sharpshooter, but he is always backpacing. That means shielded knights, gestirs, and huscarls can't keep up with him and will be gunned down. Also considering that pirates who are actually playing competantly will always travel with company, usually a 2 person party of SS will take down almost any single class (Other than zerker or a very good gestir) if they had the range advantage.

    The most reasonable thing to do is to as a heavy knight is to run and hide and get him by surprise in a close quarter environment like a small corridor or room, which is not a recommended tactic for pubbies in usual Booty maps or territory maps, unless you excell greatly at such tactic.

    This tactic does not help the offense abilities of the HK at all, since he first has to run (more like walk) to the enemy base, fight the pirates (get out ran by every pirate but the captain), some how live through that whole ordeal and recapture the chest (which is very improbable since the knight is such an easy target for Sharpshooters and spammy skirmishers)

    So this means that every class will be able to adapt to the new coming of the sharpshooter and the gameplay changes. Everyone except for the heavy knight. Heavy knights are fish chum against a sharpshooter who isn't screwing off. (or almost every other class for that matter)

    And heavy knights are sooooo easy to kill. It destroys the intense challenge and the satisfaction of killing off 1-2 heavy knights that people would feel pre-patch. :( I'll miss the old HK.

    That is all i can come up with to complain about in PVK 2, which is outsandingly good for me because my fingers are getting tired.

    If anyone has any good tactics to counter a sharpshooter with a Heavy Knight that hasn't been mentioned just recently, please post it.
  • ZaffreZaffre Senior
    edited 1:58AM
    When I play Heavy Knight I tend to counter Sharpshooters by cutting corners and grabbing any nearby armor powerups. Cutting corners whereas a Sharpshooter will not lets me catch up to them, and one claymore swing can usually down them. Because of the small armor increase on the Heavy Knight, I tend not to take too much damage before I catch up with them, and when I do I use my sword & shield.

    Having an Archer for ranged attacks greatly helps. I once partnered up with a sibling of mine; me as a Heavy Knight, him as an Archer. It was not pretty; we were at the top of the scoreboard. It's a mutually beneficial pair; the Archer takes out quicker or ranged targets like the Skirmisher and Sharpshooter, while the Heavy Knight protects the Archer from getting hit by the melee classes because the Heavy Knight has the melee superiority.

    The Knights team is designed in such a way that teamwork is pretty much required to survive. One class is good in melee combat but can't do much against ranged. The other has phenomenal ranged abilities but is not potent in melee. When teamwork is used and the two classes work together the Knights can easily outmatch the other teams.
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  • CrackpunchCrackpunch Senior
    edited 1:58AM
    Turtle, stop talking shirley.
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  • I'm a TurtleI'm a Turtle Senior
    edited 1:58AM
    Crackpunch wrote:

    Turtle, stop talking shirley.


    That's not an effective way of countering sharpshooters as a heavy knight...

    Zaffre wrote:

    When I play Heavy Knight I tend to counter Sharpshooters by cutting corners and grabbing any nearby armor powerups. Cutting corners whereas a Sharpshooter will not lets me catch up to them, and one claymore swing can usually down them. Because of the small armor increase on the Heavy Knight, I tend not to take too much damage before I catch up with them, and when I do I use my sword & shield.

    Having an Archer for ranged attacks greatly helps. I once partnered up with a sibling of mine; me as a Heavy Knight, him as an Archer. It was not pretty; we were at the top of the scoreboard. It's a mutually beneficial pair; the Archer takes out quicker or ranged targets like the Skirmisher and Sharpshooter, while the Heavy Knight protects the Archer from getting hit by the melee classes because the Heavy Knight has the melee superiority.

    The Knights team is designed in such a way that teamwork is pretty much required to survive. One class is good in melee combat but can't do much against ranged. The other has phenomenal ranged abilities but is not potent in melee. When teamwork is used and the two classes work together the Knights can easily outmatch the other teams.


    Thank you for the feedback. I am still saddend that the HK is not as effective as it was in the past, but hopefully the Man-at-Arms will definitely compensate for the knight's teams' incappabilities in good offense.
  • CrackpunchCrackpunch Senior
    edited 1:58AM
    I'd begin to tell you why your arguments are stupid, but it's so obvious I won't insult you further by explaining.
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  • I'm a TurtleI'm a Turtle Senior
    edited October 2012
    Crackpunch wrote:

    I'd begin to tell you why your arguments are stupid, but it's so obvious I won't insult you further by explaining.

    Hey, I'm just speaking my mind about this situation of the heavy knights being different compared to pre-patch, don't know why you're insulting me and getting pissed off from this. And no, don't waste your time explaining why, it'll throw the thread off-topic.
  • CrackpunchCrackpunch Senior
    edited 1:58AM
    Dude, you're trolling.
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  • I'm a TurtleI'm a Turtle Senior
    edited October 2012
    *Facepalm*
    Anyways, back on topic. I've been trying out the sharpshooter lately and its fun as hell! Fairly easy to take down a knight from a distance, but once he gets close to you, you're screwed in about 2 charged bastard sword hits (Only if he gets near you, which is easy to avoid as SS)

    I hope the devs get the man-at-arms rolling out soon because the knights team is so...weak. It makes me feel sorry for the players who are forced to be in the knights team because all i see are the heavy knights being ravaged like little tin cans in a grinder.
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited 1:58AM
    I wrote:

    Using shield doesn't help too much, just takes longer for the sharpshooter to put you down.


    Because a SS blowing through most of his ammo to break through a shield makes it not helpful? This isn't a 1v1 game. If I see a HK shielding coming towards me in a non-straight line why would I waste most of my ammo just to break through his shield? If I somehow don't land my rifle shot on his body then I won't have enough to kill him because of all that effort to break through that shield. Another thing, it would also make me fairly useless against his teammates as well as I'd have next to no ammo. If your teammates were SS would you want them to waste time on a shielding guy as opposed to fighting his non-shielding teammates? It is better to focus the shielding ones together afterwards or a non-SS to hit the shielding players (with you hitting him during that point if you have the opportunity).

    What I found to be smarter play for a SS is, in the case of 1v1, to bait him to drop his shield with your dagger then shoot him with the pistol when he changes weapons, and repeat.

    Team of SS does not fare well especially if both teams sandwich them. The same is said for team of Archers which are more versatile in melee as opposed to SS.

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  • FourwindFourwind Senior
    edited 1:58AM
    Heavy Knights are slow, yes, If I'm not close to them I can always outrun them.
    But do you know how long that longsword is? How much damage it deals?
    If a sharp isn't at full health and armour it will INSTANTLY KILL HIM.

    Heavy knight is also a lot harder to kill than before, as they have more armour. If you're playing HK, just let your archers deal with sharp shooters that are far away, and if they try to come close you can cut them down easily. And if you're dealing with a berserker a....um....

    After the update I can't kill berserkers as knight. Uh.... avoid them I guess.
  • UberMannUberMann Level Designer PVKII Team, Authorized Creator
    edited 1:58AM
    I'm with I'm a Turtle on this one. I should think the HK is stronger now, but to me, it feels like he is actually a lot more vulnerable. Before the patch, a 2 vs 1 situation would usually still be manageable as a HK, however since this patch I often see myself get destroyed by just one enemy. Of course this heavily depends on your opponent. A good skirmisher is almost impossible to deal with, a good Huscarl is the same problem (since they deal more damage now, I think) and Sharpshooters are such a pain in the... everything. The problem might lie in the longer charge time, coupled with the HK's slow movement speed, since the longer charge time means you need to stay out of range of your enemy long enough to fully charge your swing (to avoid getting perfect parried and dealing maximum damage), which is very hard to do against enemies that are faster than you/have more range than you.

    I can't really say if it'll become better in the future, as teams start mixing classes more again, but right now, everyone wants to play Sharpshooter, of course. This leads to the Knights team being filled by either Archer-only players, or those who couldn't get a spot in Vikings or Pirates. Therefore, Knights team feels generally less organized and there is rarely teamwork or even communication of incoming threats, etc. The good players seem to be whoring Pirates right now and I can't blame them, that musket rifle is so damned fun to shoot with.

    I've actually had a form of discussion about this on a server yesterday, where someone else mentioned that Pirates just have "all the fancy stuff". And this seems to be true, playing Pirates is most fun, as they have the most innovative weapons and specials: Parrot, Keg, Musket rifle, Blunderbuss (and special), the lunge (very satisfying to hit people with) and the powder horn (very easy to get)
    The Vikings in turn have: Shield charge, Spear charge, glowing red with anger, throwing axes and javelins (which are hard to use but very satisfying to hit people with)
    The Knights have: HK Claymore spin, Crossbow, Longbow and three fiery arrows
    (Note that the not mentioned weapons seem negligible to me and yes, this is my subjective view on which weapons are fun and which aren't, but even so, the Pirates still have the most variety)

    The Knights are not very "fancy" in weapon choice at all and pre 2.5 the HK could make up for being so... "basic" by being satisfying to play. As I mentioned in the beginning of my text-wall, you still had the chance of beating the odds and standing your ground. Now, to me, it feels like you get kicked in the nuts when try that and must have a group of HKs bunching together in order to get anything done.

    I understand the devs are working to balance everything in a way to work towards the final goal, the finished game and I respect that, but right now the HK must fill both offensive and defensive roles, yet is only meant for defense. This is what throws me off. The hope I have is, that the Man At Arms will solve this issue and fill the offensive role. The time in between now and the MAA release will be a tough one for Knights, though.
  • CrackpunchCrackpunch Senior
    edited 1:58AM
    Last night I played each team to prove to the dinahs that SS was not OP and knights were not UP. I pwned regardless of which team I was on.
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  • I'm a TurtleI'm a Turtle Senior
    edited October 2012
    Crackpunch wrote:

    Last night I played each team to prove to the dinahs that SS was not OP and knights were not UP. I pwned regardless of which team I was on.


    Well yes, that's you playing. Im concentrating on the commoners, y'know the ones that haven't played this mod from 2007 to now. Before you say "Get skills n.o.o.b" I, unregrettably played this mod since 2007. I'm just worrying about the balance of only the Heavy Knight, since this is the most drastic gameplay change to the knight's main and only muscle class i've seen.

    Heavy Knights just get obliterated if in the hands of a casual melee gamer. The main Heavy Knight destroyers are Zerkers, Gestirs, Skirmishers and Sharpshooters. No, don't nerf those classes, just add a little more oomph to the HK, that's all.

    Also saying that a class is not OP or UP just because only that person is good at game doesn't mean that applies to the rest of the community (Most of whom don't even know that PVK2 has a forum)

    Once the Man at Arms comes out, that will definitely change my standings on the Knights. But currently casual players don't have the MAA, so im going to have to complain about the only accessible melee class in the knights team.

    P.S. You're in New Zealand, I'm from North America. Both skill references will be very different due to drastic ping differences. So I don't know if you play with Moon, ShArd, Koko, or any of the other regulars on this side of the globe who are stupidly good at this game. Just to point out the differences in mind sets.
  • OcelotOcelot Senior
    edited 1:58AM
    i can understand wanting the another melee class for the knights extremely understand that actually


    but still cant get on the band wagon of Overpowered or underpowered


    idk i just feel like all these threads that are saying that these changes are for the worse is like a slap in the face to the devs and the testers


    if these things were a real problem dont you think the testers of the content would have had the same problem ?
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  • I'm a TurtleI'm a Turtle Senior
    edited October 2012
    UnnkMC wrote:

    i can understand wanting the another melee class for the knights extremely understand that actually


    but still cant get on the band wagon of Overpowered or underpowered


    idk i just feel like all these threads that are saying that these changes are for the worse is like a slap in the face to the devs and the testers


    if these things were a real problem dont you think the testers of the content would have had the same problem ?


    All i'm saying is that the Heavy Knight is relatively less combat effective than 2.4 HK. Hk's in in 2.4 could at least land 1 or 2 uncharged hits on a skirmisher if he kept up with the red monkey. But now in 2.5 HK can barely land 1 uncharged hit on a skirmy before he runs out of range.

    Everything else in this mod is all lovely, except that little tarnish on the Heavy Knights combat versatility.
  • OcelotOcelot Senior
    edited 1:58AM
    what you just said

    tells me that you need to up your ability in hitting jumping players

    yah skirms do jump around like monkeys but not bunny hopping their trying to flank you

    always make sure you expect at any moment a jump to happen then swing where the arch is heading over you



    idk just funny because i sucked at 2.4hk and i started playing hk again after last night reading people were having that much trouble with

    hes actually pretty damn effective

    alot of this sounds like its a change of thinking thing

    you expected certain movements in 2.4 so your mind wants it so bad to happen again your not developing new tactics as you go along

    i admit though when i first started playing i got pretty miffed it felt like a brand spanking new engine almost

    but then i got over the shock and aw and i dont get any "different" "less fun " feeling from it

    if im able to play a game OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN for hours straight... how is that not fun

    i only have played this game for maybe 2 months

    166 hours total played 56hrs played int the last 2 weeks

    if im playing a game that much...
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  • CrackpunchCrackpunch Senior
    edited 1:58AM
    I wrote:

    Well yes, that's you playing. Im concentrating on the commoners, y'know the ones that haven't played this mod from 2007 to now. Before you say "Get skills n.o.o.b" I, unregrettably played this mod since 2007. I'm just worrying about the balance of only the Heavy Knight, since this is the most drastic gameplay change to the knight's main and only muscle class i've seen.

    Heavy Knights just get obliterated if in the hands of a casual melee gamer. The main Heavy Knight destroyers are Zerkers, Gestirs, Skirmishers and Sharpshooters. No, don't nerf those classes, just add a little more oomph to the HK, that's all.

    Also saying that a class is not OP or UP just because only that person is good at game doesn't mean that applies to the rest of the community (Most of whom don't even know that PVK2 has a forum)

    Once the Man at Arms comes out, that will definitely change my standings on the Knights. But currently casual players don't have the MAA, so im going to have to complain about the only accessible melee class in the knights team.

    P.S. You're in New Zealand, I'm from North America. Both skill references will be very different due to drastic ping differences. So I don't know if you play with Moon, ShArd, Koko, or any of the other regulars on this side of the globe who are stupidly good at this game. Just to point out the differences in mind sets.


    I play on Cannabis and Slammin Butt Pirates.

    I play good on American servers, and absolutely slaughter on NZ/Aus servers.
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