[WIP] bt_freeze

lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
edited January 2017 in Community Maps
Hello, about a week ago, I begin creating a remake for pvk_freeze map. At the moment, I'm recreated the map layout.

In the original, it is snow level, the Vikings will start under water, knights of the castle ruins and the pirates on the boat crashed. On the map are many underground tunnels filled with water, so it is necessary to act quickly!
Here it is: 41348-clip-258kb.png?nocache=1

Comments

  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited January 2017
    El' Negro request.

    • //FREEZE REMAKE CONCEPTS AND IDEAS


    • PIRATES:


    • For Pirates' spawn, make it as it is BUT replace the frozen boat with a broken ship hull, just like the one from Townsquare. Make that the chest zone.


    • When going outside from the Pirates' spawn, there will be a big area with a lake and another lake with a hole in it. Make it so that "hole lake" has steps to get up, not a ladder.


    • Also, add a lot of cover around the area itself, such as fences, barricades, broken ship bits, etc.


    • VIKINGS:


    • Keeping the concept, there should be water like before BUT chests need to be relocated.


    • Make a small cave where you have to swim to get to it, but inside the cave it's ground and it's a bit big, add a chest spot in the middle with a wooden board.


    • Should add at least 2 entrances, can go up to 3. The first one is through water, the other should be through ground and must be tight.


    • KNIGHTS:


    • Make the fort bigger and with more buildings.


    • Outside the Knights' base, make it so there are many ruined buildings, to be used as cover and some decoration.


    • There should be at least 1 "Ambushing" way to get in.

  • ColonelColonel Finger Lickin' Good PVKII Team
    edited 2:48AM
    Great how you are focusing on the layout! This is where the hardest work happens. Testing & refining and all over again. Use simple geometry everywhere, dont make the investment until you know exactly what layout to use.

    Remember much like bt_pinegrove, you are at liberty to make changes to fit PVKII...See Gaz's dev journal from 2008 :) http://forums.pvkii.com/index.php?showtopic=7629&st=0

    xq0LCrG.png
    Everything has its beginning, hop aboard the grogboat!  
    Colonel: Co-Lead | Level Designer

  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited 2:48AM
    Colonel wrote:

    Great how you are focusing on the layout! This is where the hardest work happens. Testing & refining and all over again. Use simple geometry everywhere, dont make the investment until you know exactly what layout to use.

    Remember much like bt_pinegrove, you are at liberty to make changes to fit PVKII...See Gaz's dev journal from 2008 :) http://forums.pvkii....topic=7629&st=0


    Yeah, i'm reading that.. )
    Unfortunately i do not have grogbots for local testing.
    I have a El' Nergro community for it, heh
  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited March 2017
    Finally, after so much time, I went back to working on the map and preparing a little progress. It's WIP images.

    Compare it.

    kSy97sv.jpg and 4gJadGf.jpg


    YunBSMe.jpg and lnEJoYs.jpg
  • ColonelColonel Finger Lickin' Good PVKII Team
    edited 2:48AM
    Hey nice work so far! I can tell you want to capture the original feeling of the map and keep it true to that. Remember you should test gameplay before detailing - would you say you can start to do gameplay test?

    xq0LCrG.png
    Everything has its beginning, hop aboard the grogboat!  
    Colonel: Co-Lead | Level Designer

  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited March 2017
    Colonel wrote:

    Hey nice work so far! I can tell you want to capture the original feeling of the map and keep it true to that. Remember you should test gameplay before detailing - would you say you can start to do gameplay test?


    I do not know, I do not want to test this before I finish putting the map into order (possibly never or may 2017, maybe early.). I corrected some mistakes made earlier. But these are not all the errors that I need to fix in the process of creating a layout.
    At the moment I'm trying to change the original layout for the better, like with a boat in the original.

    Also for my haters in the face of Combine, I will not use Assets from Gaz. Stomp model will be replaced by a better model.
    I asked him for permission to recompile the tree model using snow textures, but 99.999% I will not do it.
  • ColonelColonel Finger Lickin' Good PVKII Team
    edited 2:48AM
    There is nothing wrong with using models and textures made by gaz or those that appear in other maps as they can be used by anyone in the hammer model library. There is a problem however with decompiling maps and copying models and brushwork or brushes/ displacements exactly to go into your own map.

    If you do have permission to decompile it probably should only ever be for learning purposes.

    The layout might be horribly unbalanced you never know, better to test it and find out early than to put a lot of work in only to realize you need to do even more work.

    Mapping requires patience. Patience to learn. Patience to take your time. It's worth it :) can't rush art.

    xq0LCrG.png
    Everything has its beginning, hop aboard the grogboat!  
    Colonel: Co-Lead | Level Designer

  • Combine™Combine™ Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited 2:48AM
    Looks pretty good, cause it's a remake i recommend you make it exactly like the original, then once done you do testing to see if you wanna change it or not as sometimes the original design can feel and play better than what it is in your mind but sometimes it doesn't, that's why you need to test it.

    Even making the entire layout with a couple of changes is acceptable but i'd prefer remaking all of it exactly the same way then seeing if i wanna open up any parts, add detail to certain things, make it how i want it to look.

    PVKII pictures aswell, looks a little too big and open, i would prefer if you kept the waterfall and the boat aswell, experimenting with that as you can replace it with a small bridge, broken tree, rocks, etc

    No clue why you needed to mention me or call me a hater, but i suggest not starting drama here or calling out people as this is not the place for it. :)
  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited 2:48AM
    Colonel wrote:

    There is nothing wrong with using models and textures made by gaz or those that appear in other maps as they can be used by anyone in the hammer model library. There is a problem however with decompiling maps and copying models and brushwork or brushes/ displacements exactly to go into your own map.

    If you do have permission to decompile it probably should only ever be for learning purposes.

    The layout might be horribly unbalanced you never know, better to test it and find out early than to put a lot of work in only to realize you need to do even more work.

    Mapping requires patience. Patience to learn. Patience to take your time. It's worth it :) can't rush art.


    No any play test.

    First time i'm texture and improve all zones.
  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited 2:48AM
    Combine™ wrote:

    Looks pretty good, cause it's a remake i recommend you make it exactly like the original, then once done you do testing to see if you wanna change it or not as sometimes the original design can feel and play better than what it is in your mind but sometimes it doesn't, that's why you need to test it.

    Even making the entire layout with a couple of changes is acceptable but i'd prefer remaking all of it exactly the same way then seeing if i wanna open up any parts, add detail to certain things, make it how i want it to look.

    PVKII pictures aswell, looks a little too big and open, i would prefer if you kept the waterfall and the boat aswell, experimenting with that as you can replace it with a small bridge, broken tree, rocks, etc

    No clue why you needed to mention me or call me a hater, but i suggest not starting drama here or calling out people as this is not the place for it. :)

    No waterfall and no broken boat.
    it's so so stupid idea.
  • Combine™Combine™ Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited March 2017
    lokkdokk wrote:

    No waterfall and no broken boat.
    it's so so stupid idea.


    I wouldn't call it a "stupid idea", i find it more interesting and original as it would look alot better if you put time and effort into making the boat detailed nicely and making the water pretty as each spawn should have it's own theme to it.

    Not really a fan of your idea to have a flat surface with trees and that's basically it, it feels very empty and not interesting at all.

    The waterfall and boat idea from PVK1 i find has alot of potential to play around with, has alot of cool gameplay mechanics aswell.

    You can do whatever you want as it's your map like always, but i would prefer if you took risks at some point to make the gameplay fun aswell as making the map look lovely. Cause sure you're remaking the map, but you seem to be getting rid of alot of interesting parts that makes the PVK1 map look interesting and fun to play in.
  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited 2:48AM
    Combine™ wrote:

    I wouldn't call it a "stupid idea", i find it more interesting and original as it would look alot better if you put time and effort into making the boat detailed nicely and making the water pretty as each spawn should have it's own theme to it.

    Not really a fan of your idea to have a flat surface with trees and that's basically it, it feels very empty and not interesting at all.

    The waterfall and boat idea from PVK1 i find has alot of potential to play around with, has alot of cool gameplay mechanics aswell.

    You can do whatever you want as it's your map like always, but i would prefer if you took risks at some point to make the gameplay fun aswell as making the map look lovely. Cause sure you're remaking the map, but you seem to be getting rid of alot of interesting parts that makes the PVK1 map look interesting and fun to play in.


    Flat land is not the final option. It's just an early Alpha.
    I have a really cool idea for the pirate base, but for now I would not want to sound anything to not be unfounded.
  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited 2:48AM
    Give access to all at the Steam Workshop for feedback and community playing: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=846374704

    Update notes:
    1) Improve tunnels.
    2) Add water.
    3) Improve Pirates base.
    4) Add more displasements.
  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited 2:48AM
    alpha 3 concept (if anyone is interested)

    1. Reduced rocks.
    2. The actual abandonment of tunnels in their original form.
    3) A few great ideas for future updates.


    i1DuXqD.jpg 90543Jh.jpg
  • Combine™Combine™ Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited 2:48AM
    Judging from the Pirates base, it feels like the spawn only has 1 way in and out, if that's so then that's a really big no no for Booty and i do not recommend it.

    Nearly every booty map i've played has 2 sides, either in or out whichever you want, making it balanced for both sides. Having 1 way in gives an advantage to the defenders as they can just bundle up together and sit with the chests looking at 1 direction.

    I seriously recommend try looking at dev maps or even custom maps to see how to play out booty as just because it worked in PVK1, won't apply the same to PVKII (due to different engine etc) which is why testing and feedback is very important.
  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited 2:48AM
    Greetings, your feedback is important to me, I really thought about this, to give the second path for the pirate base.

    It will come later when I begin to process the water tunnel, sooner or later I will show a new approach and a look at this question.

    On the nearest map test, I want to test the original concept of the map with small changes over which I'm working at the moment.
  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited 2:48AM
    what do you think guys about new yellow path?

    cj0sEMQ.png?1
  • Combine™Combine™ Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited 2:48AM
    I can't really judge or say anything about it untill you finish the layout to the point where you're able to test it. Once we reach that point then i can let you know.
  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited April 2017
    Hi guys, I have not worked for about a month on the map, but I'm ready to submit a new map layout.

    After working on small projects, the muse returned to me again and I started to create.

    8ef1wVq.png
  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited 2:48AM
    Hi guys, I have not worked for about a month on the map, but I'm ready to submit a new map layout.

    After working on small projects, the muse returned to me again and I started to create.

    8ef1wVq.png
  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited May 2017
    Attention! Public Playtest on the next weekend!

    More info about it at: The Testudo Cohort Group

    At the moment I want to test the final version of the layout, attention, this version without any special detailing and other delights.

    And so, guys, I'll work hard on the map for the rest of the week.
    I hope for your presence, feedback, suggestions and wishes!

    1o8dZdp.jpg
  • HurtculesHurtcules PVKII Team, Beta Tester
    edited May 2017
    1. Watch for lights near the ground with snow because it can create blinding spots in the snow.
    2. Avoid ladders; make the pit have a round spiral ramp.
    3. Watch for large open areas, players need cover and it’s hard to fill all that negative space with props and cover that match the environment layout. You’ll need to narrow this scope, or, figure out what pathing can be created with all that open space.
    4. The tunnels that go down are cool, but it’s too long and I think players that come in from the high ground will have an advantage. They will also have a visual advantage if the tunnel isn’t well lit.
    5. It’s not a good idea to make players jump into a hole as a path if it hurts them.
    6. It’s currently unbalanced with the chests in the knights having cover and structure, but the other two don’t.
    7. This build is also very dark in most of the areas and it’s unclear of the lighting intentions.
    8. The spawns have no protection and are very open to the outside play space.
    9. The Viking and pirates are very close, but the knights is the farthest with a ton of open space that can easily defend their chests, most likely the Vikings and pirates will only fight each other and avoid the knights all together.
    76561198031204255.png
  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited May 2017
    Hurtcules wrote:

    1. Watch for lights near the ground with snow because it can create blinding spots in the snow.
    2. Avoid ladders; make the pit have a round spiral ramp.
    3. Watch for large open areas, players need cover and it’s hard to fill all that negative space with props and cover that match the environment layout. You’ll need to narrow this scope, or, figure out what pathing can be created with all that open space.
    4. The tunnels that go down are cool, but it’s too long and I think players that come in from the high ground will have an advantage. They will also have a visual advantage if the tunnel isn’t well lit.
    5. It’s not a good idea to make players jump into a hole as a path if it hurts them.
    6. It’s currently unbalanced with the chests in the knights having cover and structure, but the other two don’t.
    7. This build is also very dark in most of the areas and it’s unclear of the lighting intentions.
    8. The spawns have no protection and are very open to the outside play space.
    9. The Viking and pirates are very close, but the knights is the farthest with a ton of open space that can easily defend their chests, most likely the Vikings and pirates will only fight each other and avoid the knights all together.


    Thanks you for testing alpha version of map layout, mate! Now i'm waiting Gaz feedback for current pre-test version. And i try fix and add all your suggestions.
  • lokkdokklokkdokk Senior
    edited August 2017
    Hi everybody. Long time there was no news about working on the map. And here is a small update.

    And so, we all know how difficult it is to come to a good solution when you create a remake of the map. Especially when it comes to remake maps from GoldSrc engine. But I think I found the right solution and now the layout of the map looks good.

    Of course, this will require public testing, but I have settled on this, and will work on the current concept of tailoring the final result to the feedback of players.
    And so, here is the current map layout:


    4MkAPoc.png


    I would also like to know your opinion about the location of the chests. Which scheme is better to use? Give 6 chests to the Knights? Give each team two chests? Or give the pirates and Vikings one chest, and give the knights 4 chests?
  • AGSMAAGSMA The Antichrist has Resurrected PVKII Team, Beta Tester
    edited 2:48AM
    I like the idea, however all three areas look too wide and empty. Add some buildings on the Vikings and Pirates' bases.
    You can come up with alternate paths to reach the bases. Plus make a hazard or two inside the caves like stalactites or a whirlpool.
    Good work so far.

    76561198031989549.png

  • Pache94Pache94 Donald Thumb Beta Tester
    edited 2:48AM
    The layout was interesting to play on. The main concern I have is that Pirates and Vikings are to close to each other compared to the Knights who are far away. You did say that you plan on Knights having all the chest from the start though. So maybe they might attack the Knights first, but if a Pirate steals from a Knight, a Viking could easily steal it from the Pirate due to how close both chest zones are. I do like the fast pace of booty between the Vikings and Pirates. Instead of making the Viking and Pirate route longer make the Knight to Viking/Pirate route shorter.

    Another thing that would be nice is to make the cave a bit wider so there can be more movement for players to try and maneuver through the cave when fighting players.

    Also some cover would be nice for the Pirates zone (like crates of rum/fruit/gold) and some cover for Vikings zone as well.

    Just a reminder that the Knight spawns are broken. You can get stuck in buildings and under the floor.

    Overall it was fun to play and hope to see more improvements in the future.
    king_k__rool_by_biel12-d3f0vny.gif
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