Thoughts and Suggestions about the Game

MrMohoMrMoho Senior
edited September 2013 in Suggestions
Good day, everyone. I played the game now for about 350h and had the time of my Life during that. Now, after those 350 hours, I finally present my personal thoughts and suggestions about some classes and mechanics of the game which in my humble opinion, could use some nerfing/buffing.


Lets start off with the classes:

Those that could use some nerfing:

The Archer
Yes, yes, I know. It is almost a cliché, the talk about the super duper overpowered archer. Some say hes deals too much damage, some say he's too agile while others say that he is too accurate. But which one is true, if even?

Well, let's first look at his role in the game. Considering that he has weapons for everything, his role is probably the Jack of all Trades kind of ranged class, the guy who is independent from others and has something for every distance there is: Long, mid, and short range. A Jack of all trades indeed, but from the looks of it, also the master of all.

But before truly determining that, we first should take look at his pirate cousin, the Sharpshooter. His favored position is the long to mid range, the perfect positions for taking out slow classes but also the one where you need the most defends from friends. If you don't get any, faster classes will have an easy time catching up with you and, unless you hit them in the heat of the moment with your rifle, probably kill you. The Archer has no such problem, the knockback of the crossbow, the ability to shoot perfectly accurate arrows while jumping and moving, higher damaging projectiles and also being in the possession of an good melee weapon makes him highly effective at short, mid and long ranges. A perfectly fine ability of his, he is a Jack of all trades after all, but something is off. Lets compare their ranged weapons, shall we?

First of, the bow against the Artisan Flintlock:
The bow is good at mid and long range, deals fully charged 80 damage and is perfectly accurate.
The Artisan Flintlock is good at mid range, deals 45 damage, has a slightly faster shoot frequency and is not perfectly accurate unless you slow down and take aim.

Not much to say here yet, the bow is better at longer ranges while in close the Flintlock has the upper hand. Lets continue with the Rifle and the Crossbow.

The Rifle is good at long and really long range, deals 100 damage, 150 when aimed at the head.
The crossbow is is good at long, mid and short range, deals 110 damage and knocks foes back when hit.

Now here I see the first problem, the crossbow deals more damage then the rifle at an body shot. This makes the Archer almost better than the Sharpshooter at long ranges what really shouldn't be, the Sharpshooters main area is the long range after all. Personally I would say that both of them should at least deal the same amount of damage, though personally I would say 90 damage would be more than enough for him.

Now let us take a look at the melee classes. Lets see, which class really is a counter against the archer? The fast classes? Not really. The slow classes? Really no. So, who is? It's not the Sharpshooter, that much is sure and unless the Bondi is going to be a super counter against him there really isn't one.

But has there to be a direct counter against the archer? Since he his the Jack of all trades, no, not really, but he also shouldn't be a direct counter against most of the other classes.
There is only one class that I can recall where the archer can safely say: “I can take him on by my own, there is a good chance that I will kill him.”

The biggest reason for that his his great potential of kiting. When a enemy comes in close, he can just willy nilly jump away from him and shoot arrows into his face without any mayor drawbacks. A Sharpshooter can do this too, don't get me wrong, but he has to give up a lot of his accuracy for doing so.

This is the mayor reason why I think he needs a debuff. Not making him slower, weaker or less accurate but less agile and only in this situation. The perfect way in doing so? Making his charge not increase and actually deplete while he is airborne. Of course by removing the possibility of jumping while charging a shot and also the ability to shoot one while airborne (Just like with the Huntsman of the Sniper in TF2) would work. In this case, once a enemy reaches him and his crossbow is not loaded, he actually has to decide if he pulls out his Shortsword or just runs away and continues to shoot arrows at his foe, ignoring the debuff he will have by doing so.

Oh, and I said there was a person that could take it on with the Archer, didn't I? Well...


The Huscarl
The Huscarl is hard to talk about, because he is not obviously overpowered. There is just this situation you will find yourself in when choosing classes, and the class you chose is the Huscarl, because he seems to be really good. Too good.

The Huscarl has those problem like the Archer: There isn't really one that he can not take on. Captain? Breakfast. Skirmisher? Dinner. Heavy Knight? A stringy supper. Sharpshooter? Midnight snack. Archer? The annoying mosquito that keeps you awake at night and you have an hard time catching.

But why? It certainly isn't obvious, meaning that he really isn't that much overpowered, but somewhere, there is something. Something that makes him stand out.
First of the comparison. Making this one short, he is weaker and less vital then the Heavy Knight, while he is faster and has throwing axes and since the range of both the Heavy Knights and Huscarls main weapon is almost the same, he would probably win at an even skill level. The Captain is... obviously at a disadvantage (unless hes really smart), which isn't a bad thing, I mean he is better at annoying people 'n stuff...

The Skirmisher can win when he is kiting him with his Flintlock to build up his special bar, but the Huscarl has a shield to counter this. For a Sharpshooter there is no way in killing him on his own unless the Huscarls shield broke before encountering him, and even without one his rifle must hit in order to take the Huscarl out. And the Archer? While the Archer can still kite him, it is particularly hard for him to break through his shield and not getting hunted down into a corner, though he still can win when he has enough space (This is at least how I experienced it on both sides).

He is just such a perfect class, the guy who can do everything. But should he be that? Lets look at the other class that resembles him in many ways, the Gestir.

The Gestir is also a Jack of all trades kind of class, he can do everything, but there is usually a class that could have pulled that better off. He has a decent speed, a decent weapon, a decent shield and a decent projectile. The Huscarl has a okay speed, a good weapon, a really good shield and a decent projectile, making him on the long run better then the Gestir. My main problem is that as an Heavy Class, he should have at least one mayor counter, like a Heavy Knight vs. Sharpshooter situation, a situation the Heavy Knight can not win on his own.

So what is my final verdict? I have two solutions, the one where he becomes worth against ranged classes or one where he becomes worth against melee classes. Both solutions are simple.
The first one reduces his speed. With that his only option against ranged classes would be throwing axes or hide behind a shield, get the enemy’s attention so one of his friend can sneak up on him The second one reduces the range of his Two-Hand-Axe again so he has a harder time fighting other melee classes, mainly the Heavy Knight.


Classes that could use some buffing

The Berserker
Oh dear, talk about a poor bastard. The Berserker in his current state is, well... hard. Not hard to understand or anything, just hard to be effective with. Really hard.
Though why? He's fast, does not deal that little damage and is not that squishy like the skirmisher. So why is it so hard to kill anything with him and so easy to kill him?

I tested this guy for quite some time and came to one solution: Hitting people with the Bigaxe is a bitch. Why? Well first off it's range is a lot shorter than one would expect, second his swings move so fast that one has no time aiming them correctly. Whenever I play against a Berserker, I just know he is at an disadvantage and when playing as one I know I should better get on my toes. While it is hard for new players to counter him, once they play the game for about 3 days they will know how to beat him. So my verdict for the Berserker is, his Bigaxe needs some range (His Axe and Sword Combo is fine, though).

The Captain
Ahhh, the Captain, probably the most unique class in the game. He has one of the most powerful weapons in the game, a Blunderbuss that is a very neat finisher and a parrot that annoys the crap out of everyone.

So why does he need a buff? Well, It's hard to figure out- actually it's easy. He can be perfect parried by everyone! It's hard enough to even get in close with him, so why give the poor bastard a weapon that even a butterknife can perfectly block? Also, his Blunderbuss isn't that great. It's good at finishing people off, yes, but it should have more stuff, like a knockback you can actually feel. Yes that sounds perfect! My final verdict on the Captain is that his weapon should not get perfectly blocked by small weapons and his Blunderbuss should get a knockback to even out his slow speed.




My Sword Skills Are Highly Automatic
I see a lot of people complaining about Auto Parrying lately (actually since the beginnin I was playing). While you could just say “Then go to a Manual Parry Server” which I highly recommend when you have a problem with it, I had a little idea concerning this topic.
How about making it so that Auto Parry actually only deals as much as a uncharged hit while Manual Parrying deals as much as Perfect Parrying does now. This would inspire new people that have been using Auto Parry for a while to switch over to Manual Parrying after getting used to the mechanic to maximize their reward for Perfect Parrying. Of course Servers could still decide to deactivate Auto Parry.
I myself wouldn't care if the Parry System stays as it is right now, this here is just a little idea of mine.


That are my thoughts for now. Hopefully none of them seem like an overkill buff or debuff. Feel free to post your own ideas or problems you've got with mine.

Comments

  • Dr.ClericDr.Cleric Senior
    edited 12:18PM
    Oh yea, its not like we had a discussion about the Archers balance before. I like your ideas about the Zerker though, he does seem a bit weak. Although I think the Captain is pretty well balanced already.
    “I don't have moments of weakness. I'm Rik Mayall.” -Rik Mayall
  • cainsithcainsith Beta Tester
    edited 12:18PM
    We are currently working on balancing some of the classes. As for that whole bit about autoparry doing less damage? I am completely against it. Mainly because for some people, including me, depend on it due to their play styles. I jump everywhere and autoparry allows me to effectively parry better without hindering my movement. Berserker does need a buff I agree with that, and the captain is good at trading hits, if anything I'd want to make him a bit hardier.
  • SoloableSoloable Senior
    edited 12:18PM
    I'm very surprised you didn't even mention the Berserkers Sword / Axe combo hit radius. Its completely obvious that is falls way too short. People have evaded it way too easily, and the weapons just don't reach as far as it should be.

    Take a Real Life example, if I had 2 Weapons in my hands, and was swinging them both forward rapidly, surely the actual radius of the hits would be much bigger than they currently are.

    I do agree on what you've said, mostly. However your suggestion isn't really all that great, I'm just getting sick of being Auto parried constantly. I shouldn't have to fully charge my swings all the time just because someone has Auto Parry. Just my take on that situation. However I am on Manual Parry servers now.

    I also completely agree what you said on Captain.
  • MrMohoMrMoho Senior
    edited September 2013
    @ Soloable

    The reason I think the Sword and Axe Combo is fine is because I do not see it as a *run in and flail at them for some bit' but more of a 'sneeaky' weapon, as in when the enemy hasn't notice you yet you can go crazy on him and quickly deal massive damage before he even notice you, considering that it is currently the wepon with the most possible dps (at least that's what I heard).

    Anyway, thanks for everyones feedback so far.
  • ThatOneBoxThatOneBox Senior
    edited 12:18PM
    i like yopur ideas, and i'm pretty much i nagreement with most things, but i do have some little modifications.

    i think the archer only needs to not be able to fire in the air, that's all the de-buff he needs. when he jumps his arrow gets cancelled, simply.

    the captains sword is fine, i jsut think his blunderbuss needs more pushback, everything else about him is fine though.

    the huscarl and zerker had their swing speed/range/damage swapped at the last patch, i think that was a bad move. they should put it back.


    i do think auto parry is a problem, but without it can be very to fight a gestir, that's really the only problem i see. you have to parry based on his movement, because his attack animimations are so similar.

    they also modified the heavy knights swing speed last patch, making him ready his weapon slower but swing faster, but it used to be the other way around, i think that should be put back as well.


    all in all a very well thought out post, and for only havin 350 hours you are quite observant. i've been playing the game since early-to-mid 2.2 patch, so i've got some time under my belt as well. hopefully some of the devs can test out these ideas............................and we'll see if any of them are in agreement with us.
  • edited 12:18PM
    Lol you think the huscarl is not overpowered. I beg to differ.
  • SoloableSoloable Senior
    edited 12:18PM
    MrMoho wrote:

    @ Soloable

    The reason I think the Sword and Axe Combo is fine is because I do not see it as a *run in and flail at them for some bit' but more of a 'sneeaky' weapon, as in when the enemy hasn't notice you yet you can go crazy on him and quickly deal massive damage before he even notice you, considering that it is currently the wepon with the most possible dps (at least that's what I heard).

    Anyway, thanks for everyones feedback so far.


    But thats not the point. Yes, its a great weapon for sneak attacks because it does a great deal of DPS to people.

    However that is not the Berserkers concept, the Berserker shouldn't only be using the Sword / Axe combo for Sneak attacks.

    The Sword / Axe combo should be used to flail at enemies, I mean, what other reason would an angry Viking man use 2 weapons and swing at them in rapid attacks for lol? As far as I've concerned, I've prefer the Sword Axe Combo to have a bigger radius in-terms of range all around.
  • DenshinDenshin Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited 12:18PM
    I'm getting the feeling sooner or later this'll turn into another auto/manual "discussion".
    (know when and when not to fully charge)

    I wouldn't see increasing the hit radius on the sword-axe a bit wider as a problem, it would still be easy to parry whilst making it easier to rely on in surprise situations or against jumphappy opponents.

    QUOTE (Trojan•Clinique @ Nov 8 2011, 08:06 PM)
    Denshin is a rather overpowered class.

    QUOTE (Lucas =) @ Jan 12 2012, 08:16 AM)
    We're currently working on making Denshin less OP.
    signatureopaquesmall.png

  • lillemakkenlillemakken Senior, senior
    edited 12:18PM
    image
    image
    According to pvkii.com/forums,
    - Reaching enemies beyond your weapon model isn't a problem(you're just bad at dodging!)
    - Archer isn't overpowered
    - Higher post count is equivalent to higher skill, experience and knowledge in-game
  • lillemakkenlillemakken Senior, senior
    edited 12:18PM
    image
    image
    According to pvkii.com/forums,
    - Reaching enemies beyond your weapon model isn't a problem(you're just bad at dodging!)
    - Archer isn't overpowered
    - Higher post count is equivalent to higher skill, experience and knowledge in-game
  • lillemakkenlillemakken Senior, senior
    edited 12:18PM
    image


    Sorry for triple posting. Didn't allow me to link more than two videos at a time.
    According to pvkii.com/forums,
    - Reaching enemies beyond your weapon model isn't a problem(you're just bad at dodging!)
    - Archer isn't overpowered
    - Higher post count is equivalent to higher skill, experience and knowledge in-game
  • UberMannUberMann Level Designer PVKII Team, Authorized Creator
    edited 12:18PM
    These videos make me wonder, would it be a better strategy to avoid the archer as best you can until sudden death, when there will be less room for him to maneuver and only then start attacking him?
  • Dr.ClericDr.Cleric Senior
    edited 12:18PM
    VARIABLES
    “I don't have moments of weakness. I'm Rik Mayall.” -Rik Mayall
  • ThatOneBoxThatOneBox Senior
    edited 12:18PM
    those videos jsut prove the point, don't let the archer shoot arrows while in mid air.

    on a side note...turn up your graphics dude...that was painful to watch!!
  • UberMannUberMann Level Designer PVKII Team, Authorized Creator
    edited 12:18PM
    Using a recording program while playing is very taxing on the system, it is quite likely he turned down the graphics options so he could still get a good enough frame rate to fight the archer as he normally would.
  • SoloableSoloable Senior
    edited 12:18PM
    Those videos just outline how difficult One archer is to deal with.
  • DenshinDenshin Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited 12:18PM
    How difficult a well experienced archer can be who has just a single target to worry about and alot of open ground to have a large line of sight and maneuver about on a map like arena.
    But the skill of the archers always vary and fighting an archer head on, both players having full health, is a roughly uncommon scenario unless you're dueling or the server is really empty. In every other instance there's a lot of action going on all over the map to draw use from when deciding to approach an archer.

    QUOTE (Trojan•Clinique @ Nov 8 2011, 08:06 PM)
    Denshin is a rather overpowered class.

    QUOTE (Lucas =) @ Jan 12 2012, 08:16 AM)
    We're currently working on making Denshin less OP.
    signatureopaquesmall.png

  • Cap1Cap1 Land Lubber! Banned
    edited 12:18PM
    I'm having a deja vu on a topic we already locked.
  • lillemakkenlillemakken Senior, senior
    edited 12:18PM
    Yeah, indeed, the skill of archers do always vary. Some are good, some aren't.

    And yes, it is a roughly uncommon scenario that both parts has full health unless we're dueling. But think about it. In this scenario, both parts has full health, and the Archer seems obviously like the stronger class. And you bring up that this is an uncommon scenario, but what if the Archer has more health? It's only when the Archer has less health that, Huscarl - amongst other classes - finally got a chance, making it "fair" (so to speak) about 33 % of the time. Get me?


    And I honestly believe we should fit the combat balance after the best players of the game. We shouldn't fit and use an average player as a role model for the balance stats, shouldn't be re-balancing and editing the stats and character data after how a group of average players play the classes etc, but the very best only, for they are the ones who really will show you the perfections or imperfections of each class, utilizing it to its fullest capabilities, for the good or worse. When it happens that a team of five - seven very good Archers takes place, it's game over.
    According to pvkii.com/forums,
    - Reaching enemies beyond your weapon model isn't a problem(you're just bad at dodging!)
    - Archer isn't overpowered
    - Higher post count is equivalent to higher skill, experience and knowledge in-game
  • DenshinDenshin Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited September 2013
    That last sounds like the usual event of a common teamstacking which unfortunately can't be done much about. But it doesn't just apply to archers, a team with very good skirmishers can overwhelm teams with their speed, a team of very good berserkers can overwhelm teams with their high damage output.

    Every victory or loss a class has against another has been, and always will be, situational.
    - How long time a class has to react in response to incoming danger,
    - the amount/skill of the opposition versus his own and/or his team,
    - the location in the map
    - and of course health and armor.
    The archer had the upper hand on those arena fights due to numerous reasons, slightly faster movement speed, line of sight, little cover, a single enemy. An archer excel against single opponents since he has little to no crowd control unless there are chokepoints which arena pretty much have none of. Putting one class infront of another and letting them duke it out does not convince me if a class is too strong or not.

    Perhaps the problem isn't the archer, but instead lts_arena.

    ___
    edit
    On a little note, I certainly wouldn't mind testing things like a slight reduction to archer accuracy, to see how it'd affect the gameplay, in the future.

    QUOTE (Trojan•Clinique @ Nov 8 2011, 08:06 PM)
    Denshin is a rather overpowered class.

    QUOTE (Lucas =) @ Jan 12 2012, 08:16 AM)
    We're currently working on making Denshin less OP.
    signatureopaquesmall.png

  • lillemakkenlillemakken Senior, senior
    edited 12:18PM
    I understand your viewpoints. Well worded. But the Archer is definitely the problem. If a 1v1 doesn't convince you, would 5v5 do? A full server on lts_arena? You have seen the devastation caused by a stacked team of Archers, and they definitely would plow through a stacked team of Skirmishers. Imagine alone the two - three early crossbow bolts hitting right after round reset into the Pirates at spawn. Now these archers that hit only needs one single charged bow shot and they have special.
    It's unfair, really.

    And Berserkers, high damage output? You mean Huscarls. Berserkers deal less damage than Huscarls as of 2.5. Less damage, shorter reach, no shield, no ranged weapon, less durable. Only a fool would pick Berserker over the Huscarl in this patch. The only reason choosing Berserker other than "having fun" would be the zerks' special ability, but that's it.

    :icon_restless: Nerf Archer Now! :icon_restless: Buff Berserker now! :icon_restless: Nerf Huscarl now! :icon_restless:
    According to pvkii.com/forums,
    - Reaching enemies beyond your weapon model isn't a problem(you're just bad at dodging!)
    - Archer isn't overpowered
    - Higher post count is equivalent to higher skill, experience and knowledge in-game
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Beta Tester
    edited September 2013
    Gonna just post once since it has already been beaten to death in the previous locked post.

    This is a team game, 1v1 is irrelevant for most of the game. If one team starts to dominate (now we're talking about a team game) then there is a good chance (provided teams were relatively balanced mentally) that both teams will attack that one team. There is likely much less chance of the continued domination by one team. If there was however then chances are it was insanely stacked and beating up dinahs is really nothing to be proud of or used as a reference for balancing.

    This may come as a huge surprise to some people but lts_arena is not the only map in the game, its...
    bt_island


    Kidding aside, yes, arena is not the only map, situational as medic said, team game, etc etc etc.

    Best players in PVK2? There is no global ranking system, it is as if you think no one on the team knows how to play well at all... good players do help create an understanding of balance, but no matter how good someone is if they are tunnel visioned then their input is likely very flawed.
    Inb4 clans = pros. Hey I gave myself a tag now "(A Clan) kokoronokawari ⑨)" I am now officially pro! Anyone can join so they can be pro too automatically!


    As far Huscarl and Berserker, it was already mentioned on the stream there are balance changes for them in the next patch.

    Edit: This in no way represents me saying that Archer = 100% a-ok. He is not as ridiculous as the way I heard it here and in the locked thread. I have no problem leaving him as is for the most part if not the slightest tweak if "any" at all.

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  • DenshinDenshin Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited 12:18PM
    The second fastest class in the game who wields a large-category main weapon that deals a good amount of damage, multiplied by 4-5 in a stacked team. Then yes, high damage output.

    If in a public viewpoint, a 5v5(v5) would definitely open up alot more new opportunities, if there are strong people in every team then I'm very certain the win-lose ratio is going to vary all over. In games of arena I've witnessed that all teams had a few strong people in them, knights did win alot at first but that was because pirates and vikings were spread out intercepting people as they wished. As the rounds passed, I noticed that knights were suddenly starting to slowly lose their flawless victories because both pirates and vikings realized this threat and began to get more organized, trying new strategies and such over time.
    I'm not saying the knights team were teamed, the archers just got alot more attention from both enemy teams.

    I actually do think the problem lies within arena, probably even cathedral too. Both maps start in the manner where all three teams have a direct line of sight over eachother. The first few seconds are the most vital, but the archer has the advantage because the other two teams are all together in a cluster which leads to the archer not even having to aim when firing at either team most of the time, someone is going to get hit.

    QUOTE (Trojan•Clinique @ Nov 8 2011, 08:06 PM)
    Denshin is a rather overpowered class.

    QUOTE (Lucas =) @ Jan 12 2012, 08:16 AM)
    We're currently working on making Denshin less OP.
    signatureopaquesmall.png

  • TschoppoTschoppo the choppin´ Senior
    edited 12:18PM
    :D archer hardly owns in bellyhazard yeah

    slugsig.jpg

  • yushyush Senior
    edited 12:18PM
    Simple solution for Arena and Cathy: 2 to 3 seconds of "not able to use weapon warm-up".

    Not only the archer needs nerfing, i feel that after adding MAA all of characters would need a slight rebalancing. That is the problem for BetaTesters - MAA feels too good actually, doesn't he? ;)
  • LhorkanLhorkan PVKII Team, Senior
    edited 12:18PM
    yush wrote:

    That is the problem for BetaTesters - MAA feels too good actually, doesn't he? ;)


    Nope.
    dragonattacksig03-1.png
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Beta Tester
    edited September 2013
    yush wrote:

    Simple solution for Arena and Cathy: 2 to 3 seconds of "not able to use weapon warm-up".


    Just having a spawn protection is nice, which is available as plugin (such as SBP uses) so I can see it being useful as a standard for the game across all maps without any real negative consequences (1.5-2.5 seconds I think). I dunno about "not being able to use weapon" because I would like to, for example, as Gestir to start charging my javelin which takes a moment to wind up (which I feel is a bit silly already) then throw it when spawn protect wears off. Having to wait longer to even begin winding up and charging would be even more bothersome. Same applies to some others.

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  • yushyush Senior
    edited 12:18PM
    Lhorkan, You are first Beta that told me MAA is not OP. On the other hand,I think it's the team that he is overpowering, not himself.

    Koko - You are right about all that. And that Gestir's Jav - winding up is annoying, true.
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