Game Balance vs. Aesthetics

I want to talk about the range of melee weapon balance changes and how they appear in first and thirdperson to the player.

In 2.5 the Berserker's two-handed axe lost range and the Huscarl's gained range. However the ingame models don't appear to have changed. So what we have now playing against/as these classes is a strange situation where judging weapon distance comes from experience in this patch. Having played past patches, my experience has been swinging and missing as a Berserker, or swinging later than I should as a Huscarl. This may skew my view of how these ranges appear to a new player but I believe that they are inconsistent to the actual model.

In an unrelated note I've seen a major speed difference between the prep-swing and the actual swing of the berserker especially when using his special. Kinda goofy to bring an axe down in a fraction of a second yet taking almost a second and a half to bring it back up to clobber again.

Comments

  • yushyush Senior
    edited 3:40PM
    All You say seems true. But...what about it. We must get used to nerfed berserker...and that is the conclusion :)
  • PeepeewilsonPeepeewilson PVKII Team
    edited 3:40PM
    Not necessarily. I agree with most of what OP said. Hopefully we can rework the berserker and huscarl in a different direction in the upcoming releases.
  • yushyush Senior
    edited November 2012
    Huscarl is now perfect, he can take everyone and everything on the battlefield. Berserker is not as powerful as in 2.4 but has his own power, which used correctly can be very deadly :)

    Also note that not only weapon range is not precisely the same as the model appears, but also hitboxes are case here. Visual representation is never equal to real hit-zone.
  • TschoppoTschoppo the choppin´ Senior
    edited November 2012
    i agree that weapon range should go with the actual range of the model.
    Would be great to have that in the next patch
    edit: not changing the range but the model position accordingly

    slugsig.jpg

  • Major ChulainMajor Chulain Senior
    edited 3:40PM
    hopefully it can be adjusted in a way that outranging doesnt happen as much on low ping as it does now
    j7rk8n.jpg
  • yushyush Senior
    edited 3:40PM
    Redsnake, i think the latter comes with the territory. It would always be that problem due to high ping. On the other hand changing everything 1:1 (I mean model=range) includes remodelling and would not fit in that game probably, as it fits more slow - paced gameplay, such as CMW.
  • OcelotOcelot Senior
    edited 3:40PM
    ^^^

    not exactly

    i agree that the hit boxes should match the model
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  • yushyush Senior
    edited 3:40PM
    That would make the game harder and more challenging, but it may lose some of its "arcadeness". Though if devs would want to match models with hitboxes - i am for it :) Archers would have a damn hard life ;)
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited 3:40PM
    I should add that the swing speeds have changed as well which can also give that somewhat illusion of misses and hits for both of the mentioned classes. Berserker swings have to be more precise while Huscarl can compensate with its swings and turns on a moving agile target as pre-2.5 HK could do.
    Redsnake wrote:

    hopefully it can be adjusted in a way that outranging doesnt happen as much on low ping as it does now


    I may be reading this wrong but I am sure you meant to say the long range advantage high pingers have on low pingers

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  • OcelotOcelot Senior
    edited 3:40PM

    Berserker swings have to be more precise while Huscarl can compensate with its swings and turns on a moving agile target as pre-2.5 HK could do.



    as well it feels as though you have to be in their face almost to hit them with the zerker axe

    but the increased range on the huscarl axe is pretty heft so much so i catch more false hits then pre2.4

    not complainign just noticing that you can get a hit register with sound and animation, but no actual hitbox dmg register

    so you hear the hit you see the hit but no hit actually connected
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  • Noah es FrioNoah es Frio Senior
    edited 3:40PM
    UnnkMC wrote:

    not complainign just noticing that you can get a hit register with sound and animation, but no actual hitbox dmg register

    so you hear the hit you see the hit but no hit actually connected

    I have noticed this often as well.
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Senior
    edited 3:40PM
    UnnkMC wrote:

    not complainign just noticing that you can get a hit register with sound and animation, but no actual hitbox dmg register

    so you hear the hit you see the hit but no hit actually connected


    This is why on SBP we have that plugin that shows a damage number on the screen. While the damage number doesn't accurately tell you the damage you did it does inform you that you hit without having to look at the special bar each time.But I understand that frustration as well with the effects and sound =(

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  • Noah es FrioNoah es Frio Senior
    edited 3:40PM

    While the damage number doesn't accurately tell you the damage you did


    Wait, it's not accurate? 0_o All this time...

    How inaccurate is it?
  • OcelotOcelot Senior
    edited 3:40PM

    This is why on SBP we have that plugin that shows a damage number on the screen. While the damage number doesn't accurately tell you the damage you did it does inform you that you hit without having to look at the special bar each time.But I understand that frustration as well with the effects and sound =(


    ah yess thats how i know if i actually hit them or not is by looking at that plugin

    not for dmg counting as its mostly inaccurate for that purpouse with melee

    the numbers for ranged dmg seem to be pretty dead on though
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  • yushyush Senior
    edited 3:40PM

    Wait, it's not accurate? 0_o All this time...

    How inaccurate is it?


    Actually it came out some time ago in another thread. Yes, the numbers are damn innacurate. I don't know how it counts and multiply the damage, but it has nothing to do with real damage. As Evil Jack mentioned, the damage output per hit goes as: 40% for health and 60% for armor. The most tankish class, HK, have 100 hp and approx 170 ap = 270. So there's no way to hit anyone for "-550 " as plugin says, cause there is no possibility for any class to live through this. It has something to do with hp/ap damage output multiplier probably AND combo multiplier, which is 0.05 as far as i know and remember, but to know the truth - ask plugin maker ;)
  • Major ChulainMajor Chulain Senior
    edited November 2012
    UnnkMC wrote:

    as well it feels as though you have to be in their face almost to hit them with the zerker axe



    yeah, this is something i've said not so long ago aswell, I can agree on this.

    edit: mostly noticed with the backwards attack direction
    j7rk8n.jpg
  • OcelotOcelot Senior
    edited 3:40PM
    Redsnake wrote:

    yeah, this is something i've said not so long ago aswell, I can agree on this.

    edit: mostly noticed with the backwards attack direction


    did a little test on that back swing and your correct that it has the least range

    i guess whats funny about the whole big axe situation is that its called the Big Axe

    you would assume the reach would be bigger than a huscarls axe

    the big axe stays the way it is i would have no problem with it other than the poor description of name lol
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  • shayologoshayologo Senior
    edited 3:40PM
    Knight have bigger range than his sword modele
  • yushyush Senior
    edited 3:40PM
    The knights' sword longer range is due to his low speed i assume. It compensates that moments when you wont reach anyone cause of own overall slowness.

    Notice how Zerker holds his axe. His Right hand is actually quite close to the cutting edge, so new zerker's axe stats seems to be more realistic - its faster (shorter grip), and less powerful (due to the same thing), but still its two handed. Now the a/s combo seems to be more useful than before, but then, when used properly with its fast block, may seem to be even a little OP, alas it compensates nerfed big axe.

    If i may have a question - is there a command (and what is it) which shows players and weapons hitboxes?
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