Oldschool Parry System

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Comments

  • Dr. ODr. O Minister of Roggen Senior
    edited 6:18PM
    remove parrots, too please, they are really annoying.
    PVKII Server: The House of Dr. O
    --friendly fire
    --manual block

    My maps/plugins:
    te_sahara_b1 : http://pvkii.gameban...com/maps/184372
    Weddings: http://forums.allied...ad.php?t=221933



    15:55 - Sir Whiskeyngton: well you're the minister of roggen
    15:55 - Sir Whiskeyngton: you'd just be doing your job
    15:56 - Sir Whiskeyngton: I need to send an army of monks to the enemy
    15:56 - Sir Whiskeyngton: since I'm the minister of propaganda



    5:22 PM - Felis catus: QSBtYW4gY2hvb3NlcywgYSBzbGF2ZSBvYmV5cywgQWxsIHdvcmsgYW5kIG5vIHBsYXkgbWFrZXMgU2lyIFdoaXNrZXluZ3RvbiBhIGR1bGwgYm95Lg==
    5:22 PM - Felis catus: base64
    5:23 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: nab
    5:23 PM - Felis catus: dr o could translate that without a decoder
    5:23 PM - Felis catus: he is a wizard
    5:23 PM - Felis catus: he actually programmed roggen
    5:24 PM - Felis catus: he programmed the world
    5:24 PM - Felis catus: how it behaves
    5:24 PM - Felis catus: dr o is god
    5:24 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: lol
    5:24 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: you forgot the first commandment
    5:25 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: 1. Thou shalt have no gods; thou shalt only have Budnab.
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: dr o made him
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: dr o defined the gods
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: dr o did everything
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: he is the god

  • PeepeewilsonPeepeewilson PVKII Team
    edited 6:18PM
    We're going to give parrots the ability to parry attacks.
  • Dr. ODr. O Minister of Roggen Senior
    edited 6:18PM
    But seriously now, parrots should be allowed to use manual block only. Or do you want to take all skill requirements out of the game?
    PVKII Server: The House of Dr. O
    --friendly fire
    --manual block

    My maps/plugins:
    te_sahara_b1 : http://pvkii.gameban...com/maps/184372
    Weddings: http://forums.allied...ad.php?t=221933



    15:55 - Sir Whiskeyngton: well you're the minister of roggen
    15:55 - Sir Whiskeyngton: you'd just be doing your job
    15:56 - Sir Whiskeyngton: I need to send an army of monks to the enemy
    15:56 - Sir Whiskeyngton: since I'm the minister of propaganda



    5:22 PM - Felis catus: QSBtYW4gY2hvb3NlcywgYSBzbGF2ZSBvYmV5cywgQWxsIHdvcmsgYW5kIG5vIHBsYXkgbWFrZXMgU2lyIFdoaXNrZXluZ3RvbiBhIGR1bGwgYm95Lg==
    5:22 PM - Felis catus: base64
    5:23 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: nab
    5:23 PM - Felis catus: dr o could translate that without a decoder
    5:23 PM - Felis catus: he is a wizard
    5:23 PM - Felis catus: he actually programmed roggen
    5:24 PM - Felis catus: he programmed the world
    5:24 PM - Felis catus: how it behaves
    5:24 PM - Felis catus: dr o is god
    5:24 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: lol
    5:24 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: you forgot the first commandment
    5:25 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: 1. Thou shalt have no gods; thou shalt only have Budnab.
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: dr o made him
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: dr o defined the gods
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: dr o did everything
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: he is the god

  • Cool ManCool Man Senior
    edited 6:18PM

    I'll always be keen on hearing your ideas. I read almost everything posted on these forums entirely. Do you accept ring pops?

    ring-pop.jpg

    Delicious!


    Wow, a genuine pop ring.... I still got it :icon_whistling:

    I don’t want to be dragged into a debate or conversation about this, but since you kind of asked, it would be rude to not answer anything. So I’ll keep this short as possible.

    The most imminent and prominent problem about the current combat system is that there is no reliable / effective way of avoiding taking hits (this is really the thing, which separates this combat system era from the two previous). Interrelated to this; getting hits in is quite easy with almost any class / weapon (although damages are pretty mild compared to let’s say PVK1, this really adds to the frustration).

    It almost feels like PVK1 if everyone would be playing heavy knight and using only the side swing attack (which would only do like ¼ of damage of the original though). Or CS knife fights without the secondary attack.

    I trust you can imagine how this feels to me, so I don’t need to bad mouth the mod any further, by going in detail how this affects my gaming experience or rendering it unplayable.

    I have no clue what you should do about this or any other major gameplay issue (or any other positive advice, except the old cliché that try to make a mod you would like to play yourself). Or perhaps trying to think how this was solved in the previous betas / PVK1, even if going back to any of those isn’t option. Or perhaps this isn’t a problem at all, and I am just looking for a whole different sort of a game. Anyway whatever, it was a f-ing nice decade of Pvk for me!!! :icon_yarrpirate: (or something pretty close to that anyway)
  • PeepeewilsonPeepeewilson PVKII Team
    edited May 2012
    So to summarize your criticisms of the combat system, you think:
    - overall melee damage per hit is too low (I'm assuming you mostly mean 2handed weapons)
    - giving damage without also taking damage is too difficult

    Is this accurate? I also have a side question; How would you feel if pvk2 featured one-hit kills from the claymore, bigaxe (huscarl), and sniper rifle?
  • Cool ManCool Man Senior
    edited 6:18PM
    A low damage inherently isn’t something I am criticizing (not just the melee dmg N.B.). With the current system it adds to the annoyance, but it worked better with both the 1.0-1.1 and 2.0-2.2 eras. Damages have been pretty much the same throughout the mod after all (I can think of couple instances I would call as changes between betas, rest of has been more or less tweaking in my opinion, at least if we compare the scale to PVK1 damages. I suspect devs took this stance very early on, and they have stood by it, only now it really backfired).


    - giving damage without also taking damage is too difficult


    That’s what I was referring as the main problem more or less (close enough). Yes, there are plenty more believe me, which I happen to dislike, but they are all pretty secondary. Especially since this was somewhat under control during both 1.1 and 2.2 (yes, as I said back then, those were at their dead end otherwise, no doubt that change was necessary in both occasions).

    Bringing instant killing weapons ceteris paribus? I have no good opinion, since I cannot predict how replicating some singular PVK1 feature works in something very different as PVK2. In my experiences usually badly (e.g. there has been some experiments of mimicking PVK1 style with running speeds and jumping, though I haven’t witnessed them myself). If I had to bet I’d say it wouldn’t work, unless some other changes would be included as well. Being a PVK1 man myself, naturally I love the idea though, but it doesn’t mean it would work.

    Like damn. There was something so incredible satisfying to cleave pirates and knights alike with that magnificent PVK1 big axe. So powerful. The size of it alone, and the sound. You could almost feel the weight of that thing, when you made that one good swoop and a skirmisher just exploded into tiny bits under it. Nothing in PVK2 feels even close to that, and seriously I cannot believe how anybody can go to the current huscarl after that. That dinky little axe wielded by castrated emasculated Jack-of-All-Trades “viking” (Yeah, he’s suppose to be balanced, I get it). Damn shame.

    I could probably ramble Ad Infinitum about things I dislike in PVK2, but I don’t really want to carry on with this, so I’d like to end this discussion on my part. I have pretty much given up on this mod, and I still believe this discussion wouldn’t lead anywhere anyway (even if there was some incentive). Besides perhaps this is the mod devs wanted to make, and there’s enough people who enjoy it as it is, to make it worthwhile. Might be just about preferences after all. Also like I said; I have no idea what you should be doing with this right now.
  • PeepeewilsonPeepeewilson PVKII Team
    edited May 2012
    I was thinking a little bit about the future of the combat system today and had an idea I'd like your opinion on, Cool Man.

    What if we added some sort of "stamina" bar element into the parrying system. Don't draw any conclusions on it until you've heard it fully described.

    The "stamina" bar:
    - would indicate blocking potency. (almost like shield durability with regen, but for offensive weapons)
    * as you perfect parry and block attacks, your arms become weaker from the repeated impact. When they get below a certain threshold you start to take damage even if you score a perfect parry. You can still parry/counter at this point, but the effect of low stamina is tweaked to the point where it may be more beneficial to actually fully avoid contact.
    - would slowly recharge if you haven't been hit (melee only) for a period of time
    - would quickly recharge if you eat food
    - would not have any impact on movement, jumping, running etc.

    In order to bring this proposed system full-circle, we would also have to revert back to manual blocking only. The charge bars on attacks would remain, but fully charged attacks would only effect how much blocking "stamina" you took away from your opponent and how much damage you do if they fail to perfect parry.

    Thoughts?
  • ZinuXZinuX Mutated Walrus Hamster Members, Beta Tester
    edited 6:18PM
    Although I'm not Cool Man, I'll give my opinion on it:

    I don't really like the idea of stamina overall, with AoC experience as background. But that is mostly because they generally also impede on movement, which your proposal has not. But it still sort of resembles 'AoC stamina', you get some stamina that slowly regenerates which depletes by blocking. This would mean you can only be effectively in combat for so many parries, and then you are useless for some time.

    Some ideas:
    - Making the stamina regen quickly after a cooldown depending on the weapon (and charge) that hit you. This still disables you from 'whoring' it but still makes you able to compete in stretched out fights. E.G. A HK smacks you with his claymore with a full charge completely depletes stamina, and regen will kick in after X seconds, a Skirm attacks 4 times with half charge and stamina is close to being depleted. Numbers should be tweakable per weapon, to prevent balance issues.
    - A depleted stamina bar should still enable you to block, but that would only negate a small amount AND/OR unable to parry the attack. Especially if manual block is put back.
    - With manual blocking a PP would give some stamina/deplete less than a regular block.
    dragonattacksig04.pngrage.jpg
  • PeepeewilsonPeepeewilson PVKII Team
    edited May 2012
    ZinuX wrote:

    I don't really like the idea of stamina overall, with AoC experience as background. But that is mostly because they generally also impede on movement, which your proposal has not. But it still sort of resembles 'AoC stamina', you get some stamina that slowly regenerates which depletes by blocking.


    Please read what I've said more carefully. The only similarity between AOC's stamina system and my proposal is the word "stamina". Had I said "resilience" or used some other word, would that game even have been brought up?

    ZinuX wrote:

    This would mean you can only be effectively in combat for so many parries, and then you are useless for some time.


    Useless is a tremendous overstatement. Low stamina would have no effect on your ability to deal damage, only your ability to stop it via blocking. No good game allows the player to be virtually untouchable forever. Periods of invulnerability can work, but allowing a certain level of skill to grant you literal and permanent invincibility is just bad game design. This is why 2.2 was bad. Good players could face 2 or 3 opponents at once and mitigate 100% of their strikes without any sort of defensive budget.

    And finally:
    ZinuX wrote:

    - A depleted stamina bar should still enable you to block, but that would only negate a small amount AND/OR unable to parry the attack. Especially if manual block is put back.


    * as you perfect parry and block attacks, your arms become weaker from the repeated impact. When they get below a certain threshold you start to take damage even if you score a perfect parry. You can still parry/counter at this point, but the effect of low stamina is tweaked to the point where it may be more beneficial to actually fully avoid contact.
  • ZinuXZinuX Mutated Walrus Hamster Members, Beta Tester
    edited May 2012
    Yes, useless is an overstatement on my part, remembering my AoC frustrations. But the point still remains that the downtime of this stamina shouldn't be long. Otherwise you will get similar outcomes to AoC, less extreme of course, but nonetheless similar. In AoC low stamina also means you can't attack at all nor move, on top of the fact of low defensive capabilities (the latter being the similar bit). Denying any similarities with AoC system is also an overstatement on your end. ^_^

    As for that last part, oopsie daisy, overread the second sentence.

    I think the idea is testable, but I'm skeptical about it's impact. And there is only one way to find out its actual impact!
    dragonattacksig04.pngrage.jpg
  • PeepeewilsonPeepeewilson PVKII Team
    edited May 2012
    ZinuX wrote:

    there is only one way to find out its actual impact!


    I agree

    But the downtime you're imagining doesn't necessarily have to be downtime at all. A good player will simply adjust their strategy based on the circumstances. If their "stamina" bar gets beaten down, they'll have to be more quick-footed and bait their opponent into missing them completely (much like we do now in 2.4). Or perhaps they'll choose to run and see if they can wait for it to regenerate. Maybe they'll elect to pull out their shield and start bashing.

    It should force players to use more of the game. That way they can't rely entirely on their ability to press mouse2 whilst walking the correct direction.

    Now nobody is going to see the original description of the idea. Thanks, Zinux. :(
  • DMXDMX Senior
    edited 6:18PM
    Seems worth the try.
    joker_by_tortillaturtle-d50i9ir.png
  • ZinuXZinuX Mutated Walrus Hamster Members, Beta Tester
    edited May 2012

    Now nobody is going to see the original description of the idea. Thanks, Zinux. :(


    Just repost it, or put it in the news forum as a general poll. You are a dev, damnit. You have UNLIMITED POWER.
    /el presidente
    dragonattacksig04.pngrage.jpg
  • PeepeewilsonPeepeewilson PVKII Team
    edited 6:18PM
    image
  • shayologoshayologo Senior
    edited May 2012
    I see 2 solution for improve combat (not this 2 thing at same time)

    1- Statmina bar same peepeewilson ideabut statminabar work only for block, you can attack and move how you want without stamina

    2- change damage systeme

    Blocking is wrong way = you take 75%-100% damage of attack
    Blocking a 100% powered attack = 25%-50% of damage taking

    Actually 100% chaged attack making to low damage same for attack in another way of blocking
  • DrauliusDraulius Banned
    edited 6:18PM
    Mayday wrote:

    Hey ninja I found a better forum for you to post on http://www.downsyn.c...hpbb2/index.php

    You should not be making fun of people with down syndrome. Most of the development team has this disease, and it is not a laughing matter.
  • Trojan•CliniqueTrojan•Clinique Be precise. A lack of precision is dangerous. Senior
    edited 6:18PM
    Draulius wrote:

    You should not be making fun of people with boring troll like behavior. I have this e-disease, and it is not a laughing matter.


    Fixed.
  • MaydayMayday Engineering Supreme Senior
    edited 6:18PM
    Draulius wrote:

    You should not be making fun of people with down syndrome. Most of the development team has this disease, and it is not a laughing matter.


    i bet you have like five extra chromosomes
  • CelestiaCelestia Senior
    edited 6:18PM
    Mayday wrote:

    i bet you have like five extra chromosomes


    MORE IS BETTER! AM I RIGHT, OR A MI RIIIGGGHHHTTTTT
  • Dr. ODr. O Minister of Roggen Senior
    edited 6:18PM
    Celestia wrote:

    MORE IS BETTER! AM I RIGHT, OR A MI RIIIGGGHHHTTTTT


    The more chromosomes you have, the greater is your IQ, the bigger are your muscles... That seems logic to me.
    PVKII Server: The House of Dr. O
    --friendly fire
    --manual block

    My maps/plugins:
    te_sahara_b1 : http://pvkii.gameban...com/maps/184372
    Weddings: http://forums.allied...ad.php?t=221933



    15:55 - Sir Whiskeyngton: well you're the minister of roggen
    15:55 - Sir Whiskeyngton: you'd just be doing your job
    15:56 - Sir Whiskeyngton: I need to send an army of monks to the enemy
    15:56 - Sir Whiskeyngton: since I'm the minister of propaganda



    5:22 PM - Felis catus: QSBtYW4gY2hvb3NlcywgYSBzbGF2ZSBvYmV5cywgQWxsIHdvcmsgYW5kIG5vIHBsYXkgbWFrZXMgU2lyIFdoaXNrZXluZ3RvbiBhIGR1bGwgYm95Lg==
    5:22 PM - Felis catus: base64
    5:23 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: nab
    5:23 PM - Felis catus: dr o could translate that without a decoder
    5:23 PM - Felis catus: he is a wizard
    5:23 PM - Felis catus: he actually programmed roggen
    5:24 PM - Felis catus: he programmed the world
    5:24 PM - Felis catus: how it behaves
    5:24 PM - Felis catus: dr o is god
    5:24 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: lol
    5:24 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: you forgot the first commandment
    5:25 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: 1. Thou shalt have no gods; thou shalt only have Budnab.
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: dr o made him
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: dr o defined the gods
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: dr o did everything
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: he is the god

  • PeykoPeyko Senior
    edited 6:18PM
    I would love to play on a server with only manuel parrys. But unfortunately, those doesnt exist anymore? Or do they?
  • DenshinDenshin Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited 6:18PM
    I'm pretty sure dr.O's server provide manual parry doesn't it?

    QUOTE (Trojan•Clinique @ Nov 8 2011, 08:06 PM)
    Denshin is a rather overpowered class.

    QUOTE (Lucas =) @ Jan 12 2012, 08:16 AM)
    We're currently working on making Denshin less OP.
    signatureopaquesmall.png

  • Dr. ODr. O Minister of Roggen Senior
    edited 6:18PM
    Aye, my server enforces manual block.
    PVKII Server: The House of Dr. O
    --friendly fire
    --manual block

    My maps/plugins:
    te_sahara_b1 : http://pvkii.gameban...com/maps/184372
    Weddings: http://forums.allied...ad.php?t=221933



    15:55 - Sir Whiskeyngton: well you're the minister of roggen
    15:55 - Sir Whiskeyngton: you'd just be doing your job
    15:56 - Sir Whiskeyngton: I need to send an army of monks to the enemy
    15:56 - Sir Whiskeyngton: since I'm the minister of propaganda



    5:22 PM - Felis catus: QSBtYW4gY2hvb3NlcywgYSBzbGF2ZSBvYmV5cywgQWxsIHdvcmsgYW5kIG5vIHBsYXkgbWFrZXMgU2lyIFdoaXNrZXluZ3RvbiBhIGR1bGwgYm95Lg==
    5:22 PM - Felis catus: base64
    5:23 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: nab
    5:23 PM - Felis catus: dr o could translate that without a decoder
    5:23 PM - Felis catus: he is a wizard
    5:23 PM - Felis catus: he actually programmed roggen
    5:24 PM - Felis catus: he programmed the world
    5:24 PM - Felis catus: how it behaves
    5:24 PM - Felis catus: dr o is god
    5:24 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: lol
    5:24 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: you forgot the first commandment
    5:25 PM - Sir Whiskeyngton: 1. Thou shalt have no gods; thou shalt only have Budnab.
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: dr o made him
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: dr o defined the gods
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: dr o did everything
    5:25 PM - Felis catus: he is the god

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