Suggestions For Official Maps

ColonelColonel Finger Lickin' GoodPVKII Team
edited November 2014 in Suggestions
Suggestions For Official Maps

Developer level designers need to consider the science of what makes a PVK2 map great from the ground up, and allow the art to flow from a solid layout. Sometimes things work out great and our maps are beloved by all and other times, a map for our game may have been created years ago and may need to be brought up to speed for current standards.

Our dev and tester teams work hard to test and refine our maps, but there is only so much we can either catch or think of with our established workflow. And so, we're lowering the ramp down to you for suggestions for our official maps. Have an idea that might improve a section? Have an alternative solution for an area you think is out of balance? Here is the place for your ideas, concepts, and solutions.

Rules
- Follow forum rules as always
- Suggestions must tell us why an area/dynamic isn't working, and what could be done to improve it.
- Off topic banter will be hidden, so stay on target! Inappropriate or ignorant suggestions will be ignored (see below)
- Use any visuals, evidence, sketches, etc you want to suggest how we can make things better.
- Suggestions should be clear, to the point, and as few words as you can. Elaborate and detail if necessary.

Examples:

Inappropriate Suggestion: Town sucks. I always die. (The end.)
Good suggestion: I feel lts_town's layout could use an overhaul. It is difficult to find people during sudden death, and gameplay in the streets should be the focus. I feel like the layout could be more gridlike, and arena-sized for the town. Building doors only open for sudden death allowing you a safehaven from the streets that were the primary focus before sudden death. You would then have to time your exits from building to building. Here is a sketch I drew...

Thanks Meboyos
As members of the community, you have a voice, and here is one of the many spaces you have to use it. Wisely.

We appreciate any support for our PVK2 and OctoShark Studios.

Happy suggesting,
Colonial Sanders

xq0LCrG.png
Everything has its beginning, hop aboard the grogboat!  
Colonel: Co-Lead | Level Designer

«13

Comments

  • Links121995Links121995 Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited 11:09AM
    I've seen people drown to get out of Town Square's lake. Changing the colour and style of the ladders might stop that.

    I struggle to think of a player who did not at one time, get stuck in Island's dungeon. Replacing the brick with a mostly-excavated lever uncovered by an unfortunate soul who's skeleton is all that remains, would fix this problem immediately.

    The rock in front of the Pirate's ship on Island has always been awkward. Making it wider and lower might help.

    At the moment, I've got nothing that MrMoho isn't already (probably) working on.
    8gQi4T5.png
  • MrMohoMrMoho Senior
    edited 11:09AM
    Hmmm, is this a threat solely created because of my post? :) Well, this is not going to stop me from my quest, but I will use this oppoturnity to talk about maps that simply (in my opinion) don't have enough problems to create a whole chapter about it.

    In te_tortuga, the Knights territory (the smithery) feels a bit too far away from the intersection, often causing the Knights to go for the Vikings next. Maybe pulling the territory a bit closer to the knights spawn while pushing their spawn a bit further into the wall could help.

    In lts_arena the whole underground section isn't propely divided, making it way harder for the pirates to go down that area at the start of a round. Bending the the two entrances nearest to the pirates to be closer to them should do the trick. Of course, this would require a complete overhaul of the map, so I won't be mad if you don't do this.

    In te_cara, the place with the bridge in the town area is the only exit of the middle cave section without any way of getting up, which is especially annoying when you fall down there. A ladder to help you up the bridge is what I am picturing.

    In lts_cathedral the area at the pirates spawn seems a bit too save during sudden death. Causing one or two more rocks to fall down around that place should make it comfortably unsafe again.

    In tw_temple the big area with the rolling rock and lavapit is awfully unpopulated. A more direct conection to the middle room could help. An extra hallway maybe.
  • ColonelColonel Finger Lickin' Good PVKII Team
    edited November 2014
    Great suggestions everyone! I can make the adjustment to bt_townsquare, absolutely!

    I'll bring your ideas regarding island to Gaz's attention :)

    We'll discuss these suggestions with testers, with regards to other map suggestions you've made MrMoho.

    And yes MrMoho, you were certainly a major factor in inspiring me for this thread. Thanks for giving me a great idea!

    xq0LCrG.png
    Everything has its beginning, hop aboard the grogboat!  
    Colonel: Co-Lead | Level Designer

  • AGSMAAGSMA The Antichrist has Resurrected PVKII Team, Beta Tester
    edited 11:09AM
    In all honesty I think Tortuga's piranha pond should drain less damage. It isn't that much fun when you see there's an exit on the other side of the cave and you can't reach it.

    76561198031989549.png

  • Ukyo KuonjiUkyo Kuonji Captain Main Senior
    edited 11:09AM
    I think that the wooden walkway on the Pirates base in Island (ie coming in from Knights, on the right by the ammo/armor) needs to be lowered. It can be annoying to get on there if you're in the water, as sometimes crouch jumping just doesn't want to work.
    There's a rock in that same area that needs to be moved closer to the walkway I think. It's easy to corner someone there and trap them. I'll provide a pic later to show what I mean.
    76561198022443233.png
    Gallery of Rage
    OnqKl5B.jpg
    8ICrnFR.png :wub:
    rYEKvgb.jpg
    He1WpjQ.png <- lts_skypirates fun
    d1vRvor.png
    TudA52z.png
    8ABWxKM.jpg
  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited November 2014
    Make the ropes easier to climb up or replace them with ladders also on island the vikings alternate route could be more convenient. i suggest just putting a ramp to the vikings cave like the pirates rather than having to go up the hill and walking the plank
    "Everything with a beginning has an end"
  • GazGaz Sir PVKII Team
    edited 11:09AM
    Make the ropes easier to climb up or replace them with ladders also on island the vikings alternate route could be more convenient. i suggest just putting a ramp to the vikings cave like the pirates rather than having to go up the hill and walking the plank


    Which ropes.

    Which is the Vikings Alternate route? Are you referring to the route behind the waterfall?
  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited November 2014
    Gaz wrote:

    Which ropes.

    Which is the Vikings Alternate route? Are you referring to the route behind the waterfall?
    Ya the one behind the waterfall and some maps have ropes to climb instead of ladders which are much harder to climb up like the one in the island river on the vikings side for example
    "Everything with a beginning has an end"
  • GazGaz Sir PVKII Team
    edited 11:09AM
    The route behind the waterfall is an exit route, you can jump out through the waterfall, into the water, and then jump out of the water using the rocks at the side. It's not a speed route in.
    You can run off past the archer dummies into the sea and swim though the caves for a more speedy alternate route in
  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited November 2014
    Gaz wrote:

    The route behind the waterfall is an exit route, you can jump out through the waterfall, into the water, and then jump out of the water using the rocks at the side. It's not a speed route in.
    You can run off past the archer dummies into the sea and swim though the caves for a more speedy alternate route in
    I always found it a superior route to the castle personally because it leads you directly to the chests and you dont have to fight though the knights front line defense unless there in the throne room the sea cave is too close to the castle for me so i much prefer to use the first cave to minimize the chance of encountering a knight
    "Everything with a beginning has an end"
  • Links121995Links121995 Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited March 2015
    Gaz wrote:

    The route behind the waterfall is an exit route, you can jump out through the waterfall, into the water, and then jump out of the water using the rocks at the side. It's not a speed route in.
    You can run off past the archer dummies into the sea and swim though the caves for a more speedy alternate route in


    I hate to break it to ya, but if I want to get the Knight's chests, I will sit by the waterfall and demand that my team follows me. 2 seconds extra travel time is a small price to pay for a route void of arrogant Archers with nothing better to do than harass the Vikings at the first opportunity.

    Map analysis
    The route ends just outside the Knight's chest area. It's easy to strong-arm your way through any defenses there, and get back to the stairs with at least one chest and enough Viking left over to give defenders trouble.

    Given that the route's entrance is fairly concealed, it's also a good stealth entrance.

    I did some testing.

    Screenshot with a visual representation of the travel times

    At Gestir speed, that "not-speedy exit" is the fastest and most convenient way to the Knight's base available, at 20 seconds. 18 if you can pull off the jump. I suggest raising the cliff a little to stop people from doing that.

    The speedy entrance takes you past front line defenders, but you have to reach it first, and they can comfortably harass you the entire time. If you take the most defended route (through the upper exit from the Viking base, wade through the river, up the rope) the fastest you'll possibly reach their base is the longest of all the travel times at 25 seconds, and you still have to go through the Knight's front line. Even a more direct route doesn't save much time, and you still have to push through the Knights.


    Suggestions
    If you want the underwater entrance to be the speedy one, you'll need to make by-passing the Knights faster than killing them and opening the door. Right now, the Knights can put up a decent fight to defend both the main and side entrances.
    If there were a tunnel under the food pick-up leading to the water, on the side nearest the alternate entrance, the Knights would have to concede the high ground and extend further from their own base, or keep the high ground and forgo the opportunity to harass the Vikings the moment they leave their territory.

    If you want the waterfall "exit" to be an exit (and simultaneously solve the problem of it being the best entrance) you could make it one-way by removing the plank leading to it, and hollow out the area beneath the high ground, offering Vikings cover from Archers right up until they reach the front line. Similar to the scenario where the Vikings enter the throne room via the escape route, except they're not in the throne room this time.

    Screenshots
    with
    crudely drawn
    diagrams


    Summary:

    - Escape route is the best entrance
    - Speedy route is not speedy
    - Raise cliff by waterfall, remove plank
    - Carve out caves beneath the raised ground
    - Tunnel leading to speedy route by the food pick-up to by-pass combat
    - Reposition the speedy route. Remove suspicious wall.

    Personally, I like the idea of holding up shields and moving forward as a unit to take on the Knights, but nobody ever goes along with it. Meanwhile, despite my objections, my Archer team mates are only too happy to abandon the chests and shoot at the Vikings as the round begins.
    8gQi4T5.png
  • GazGaz Sir PVKII Team
    edited 11:09AM
    Thanks for the feedback guys, I've implemented the last part of your route suggestion Links121995

    I hadn't tested the timings, I was just typing what I had in mind when I set it up. I'm going to leave the plank in though so that new players can see it

    I've also fixed the planking that Ukyo Kuonji mentioned

    I've also set the Dungeon door to spawn open rather than closed to lessen the chance of a new player getting stuck there, and fixed the rock jump out of water issue by the pirate ship
  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited 11:09AM
    Gaz wrote:

    Thanks for the feedback guys, I've implemented the last part of your route suggestion Links121995

    I hadn't tested the timings, I was just typing what I had in mind when I set it up. I'm going to leave the plank in though so that new players can see it

    I've also fixed the planking that Ukyo Kuonji mentioned

    I've also set the Dungeon door to spawn open rather than closed to lessen the chance of a new player getting stuck there, and fixed the rock jump out of water issue by the pirate ship
    But it was so fun trapping people in the dungeon :/
    "Everything with a beginning has an end"
  • Links121995Links121995 Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited 11:09AM
    Setting the door to "open" by default was my second idea. I discarded it in favor of my first idea, because even if it starts out open, it can be closed by a savvy Heavy Knight before combat starts.
    8gQi4T5.png
  • GazGaz Sir PVKII Team
    edited 11:09AM
    You can still trap someone Bellamy

    Having the door spawn open, and then a savvy Knight shut it to stop a potencial dinah is much less likely to happen than just trapping a dinah by accident :)
  • JabbaJabba Senior
    edited November 2014

    If you want the waterfall "exit" to be an exit (and simultaneously solve the problem of it being the best entrance) you could make it one-way by removing the plank leading to it, and hollow out the area beneath the high ground, offering Vikings cover from Archers right up until they reach the front line. Similar to the scenario where the Vikings enter the throne room via the escape route, except they're not in the throne room this time.


    So at the beginning of each round, all archers can go towards vikings through the tunnel, and stand behind the waterfall wrecking vikings without them being able to go up there and do something about it? Genious!

    In all honesty I think both paths between vikings/knights are fine and viable options depending on which you excpect to meet someone else on. Why change something that isnt broken?
    a1ntOi0.gif?1
  • Links121995Links121995 Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited November 2014
    Jabba wrote:

    So at the beginning of each round, all archers can go towards vikings through the tunnel, and stand behind the waterfall wrecking vikings without them being able to go up there and do something about it? Genious!

    In all honesty I think both paths between vikings/knights are fine and viable options depending on which you excpect to meet someone else on. Why change something that isnt broken?


    Archers do that already, only they're well out of the Viking's range on the highground just outside their own base.

    If there were Archers behind the waterfall, they would be sitting ducks for throwing axes and javelins, which are significantly more effective against Archers than arrows are against Vikings.

    The Vikings would also be able to take cover in the caves I suggested.

    Once they were past the first large rock on the path, the Archers would need to jump down from their perch and cut off their own retreat to continue shooting, not that the Vikings would be particularly bothered, given that a significant part of the Knight's team would be stranded behind them.
    8gQi4T5.png
  • JollygreenJollygreen Troll Senior
    edited 11:09AM
    I love Island and i understand why its the most played map in Pvk but I cant understand why you have removed the ladderjump from vikings to pirates and made it impossible to jump on the roof on that boathouse behind the rocks at piratebase

    Those things gave you a tactical advantage if you knew how to use them and it would've been great to get them back in there
    1pYiF.gif
  • JabbaJabba Senior
    edited 11:09AM

    Archers do that already, only they're well out of the Viking's range on the highground just outside their own base.


    You do know that its possible to jump up there with a simple ctrl-jump right? Making the ledge inaccessible from the viking side would only make it easier for archers to wreck havok.
    a1ntOi0.gif?1
  • GazGaz Sir PVKII Team
    edited 11:09AM
    Jollygreen wrote:

    I love Island and i understand why its the most played map in Pvk but I cant understand why you have removed the ladderjump from vikings to pirates and made it impossible to jump on the roof on that boathouse behind the rocks at piratebase

    Those things gave you a tactical advantage if you knew how to use them and it would've been great to get them back in there


    I never touched the jetty roof. The ladder jump was an exploit so it was removed/fixed
  • JollygreenJollygreen Troll Senior
    edited 11:09AM
    Gaz wrote:

    I never touched the jetty roof. The ladder jump was an exploit so it was removed/fixed


    I liked that exploit
    1pYiF.gif
  • FinlordFinlord Senior
    edited 11:09AM
    I think te_cara should have one more horse atleast and they should be more widely separated. I like cara and its the most beautiful map in pvk in my opinion but its nightmare with 24 players right now. So many kegs and specials flying in the air when half of a server on one terriotory.
  • ColonelColonel Finger Lickin' Good PVKII Team
    edited 11:09AM
    Finlord wrote:

    I think te_cara should have one more horse atleast and they should be more widely separated. I like cara and its the most beautiful map in pvk in my opinion but its nightmare with 24 players right now. So many kegs and specials flying in the air when half of a server on one terriotory.


    We have considered this. The horses are triggered by Lhorkan to spread further apart with more players. Perhaps we can try increasing that distance further. 3 horses would mean some more entity strain, but it's worth a try. We could have it set up like sandstorm: health, armour, health.

    xq0LCrG.png
    Everything has its beginning, hop aboard the grogboat!  
    Colonel: Co-Lead | Level Designer

  • Links121995Links121995 Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited April 2015
    I was instructed to address further comments on Island's changes here.

    Was it always possible to leap directly on to the rock with the food on it between the bases of the Knights and Vikings, from the front and right sides, as a Heavy Knight?

    While it is a tricky jump, it is also possible to leap onto that new rock by the trees. As an Archer. Granting one an unobstructed sight-line all the way to the Viking's front door, as well as a height advantage that enemies are hard-pressed to pull one down from.

    After some testing, I found that from the Viking's front door, a direct approach to the tunnel leading to the underwater tunnel and into the throne room took 20 seconds.

    The main route took 18 seconds, like last time, but that way involves directly engaging the Knights, and it wasn't an issue in the first place.

    The most direct route to the underwater tunnel (over the first tunnel) took only 17 seconds. This is now officially the fastest way in. You successfully made the not-speedy speedy route speedy.

    For the sake of a more complete analysis, I found that from the cave separating Pirate and Knight territory, the Pirates can blaze into the throne room after anywhere between 10 and 16-18 seconds. At Captain speed. It's a good thing they've got more of their own base to run through.

    In the cellar area of the castle, where there was once a gaping hole in the wall for the Vikings to enter through, there is now a solid brick wall. It seems a little bland, compared to the rest of the room. Perhaps it could look as though it were fixed and/or barricaded?

    A thought about Sphynx's opinion on the transition of the path to the dirt floor of the tunnel between the Pirate's and Viking's bases. Because it disappears after the tunnel (which now shows no signs of civilization, let alone path builders) I find myself questioning whether or not it makes sense for the path to lead directly into a hole in a wall, but not out of it. Especially since that's exactly how the other paths around the rest of the map seem to operate.

    As for the other changes, I like them.
    8gQi4T5.png
  • Links121995Links121995 Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited April 2015
    2015-04-29_00003_zpsqjvmxvzq.jpg
    Bt_Island: Viking Port

    I'd like to point this area out before I forget again. It's not possible to walk onto those tiles from this angle. A jump is required for some reason. After getting stuck there and eviscerated, I have seen more than one of my pursuers left behind, dazed and confused at this tiny step that they cannot overcome.
    8gQi4T5.png
  • GazGaz Sir PVKII Team
    edited 11:09AM
  • Black BellamyBlack Bellamy Senior
    edited 11:09AM

    2015-04-29_00003_zpsqjvmxvzq.jpg
    Bt_Island: Viking Port

    I'd like to point this area out before I forget again. It's not possible to walk onto those tiles from this angle. A jump is required for some reason. After getting stuck there and eviscerated, I have seen more than one of my pursuers left behind, dazed and confused at this tiny step that they cannot overcome.
    i wonder what he looks like under that armor...prob dirty jugging by his hands
    "Everything with a beginning has an end"
  • Ukyo KuonjiUkyo Kuonji Captain Main Senior
    edited 11:09AM
    I'm not exactly sure what the point of the crates in front of the Viking's boat on Island is supposed to be doing. To me it seems like it's supposed to be sort of a way to juke out opponents by jumping onto them and then going another way. But the way it's placed, right next to the boat, seems a bit unnatural, like it doesn't really belong there.
    76561198022443233.png
    Gallery of Rage
    OnqKl5B.jpg
    8ICrnFR.png :wub:
    rYEKvgb.jpg
    He1WpjQ.png <- lts_skypirates fun
    d1vRvor.png
    TudA52z.png
    8ABWxKM.jpg
  • GazGaz Sir PVKII Team
    edited 11:09AM
    It's a dock, so I'm guess they're supplies for non Viking invader ships. Basically they're a small bit of cover gameplay wise
  • NiveNive Beta Tester
    edited 11:09AM
    You should edit the clip brushes of the wall in the Knight's moat on Island so people can't climb out of it. Either that, or actually design it so anyone can instead of just the occasional veteran.
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