Ability to block specials

DudazeryDudazery Senior
edited 8:15AM in Suggestions
We all know specials arent balancable because you can kill one easy or afk target to kill a better one. Two players targetting one player with special will kill the target without using a single normal attack. One way to try to balance this is to add a "special blocking" ability. This ability would only block against special attacks and negate all damage. The mechanic would leave you immobilized for a few seconds leaving you vulnerable if you miscalculate your timing. Make use of that golden statue animation if you want..

The use of this block should be limited so you cant just spam it. You could have a special block meter that is filled by doing whatever the devs decide. I suggest having either a slowly recharging special block meter, or just using your own entire (or half) special attack meter to block. This adds more depth to the game while not completely removing the fun aspect of specials.

Comments

  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Beta Tester
    edited 8:15AM
    Dudazery wrote:

    The mechanic would leave you immobilized for a few seconds leaving you vulnerable if you miscalculate your timing. Make use of that golden statue animation if you want.


    Someone plays too much league lol.

    Killing someone "weaker" to beat a "stronger" opponent? You are assuming that specials cannot be dodged or mitigate the damage. If you see someone do that you can hit them while they are trying to "farm" the special. That is how I handle people who try to do that and they cannot normally focus on both of you if that happens. Even if he does get the special in the end he will be pretty hurt from the ordeal leaving you or a team mate/third team to beat them. While special farming I think isn't the classiest thing someone can do it creates a strategy and depth. It isn't unusual in things like TW where you farm a special and use it on the carriers, that's strategy. Not to mention that specials are, again, not impossible to dodge or to mitigate much of the damage.

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  • PaladinPaladin Senior
    edited December 2013
    I was thinking of an idea that you could use your shield to block a small amount of damage against specials but then not all classes have shields.
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  • SpirrwellSpirrwell That Guy That Knows Things About a Lot of Things PVKII Team, Authorized Creator
    edited December 2013
    I think Koko pretty much hit the nail on the head. Special damage can be mitigated, specials can be dodged, and one more thing is that different specials do different things. I do think that perhaps some things could be done to better balance certain specials as they can be quite exaggerated in what they can do like sending you halfway across a map the size of a football stadium.

    However I don't think having a specific ability to counter specials is a great idea. It really starts to limit the scope of what people do, because then you'll likely just end up resorting to close quarters combat creating a stale type of gameplay though I could be wrong.

    Plus as I mentioned all specials are different and I'm not sure how such a block system would work as it'd have to have an appropriate animation for each block. Unless perhaps you mean that certain classes have a built in way to counter specifically the special of another. Still, that'd probably be more trouble than it's worth especially given the other things that could be done.

    Sorry, but I don't think it's going to happen.
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  • DenshinDenshin Beta Tester, Authorized Creator
    edited 8:15AM
    When you start climbing the learning curve you will start to notice certain behaviors in players that can actually be an indicator if that player has a special or not, when you can identify when players has a special based upon reading their behavior you'll be able to avoid most specials altogether or at the very least take as little damage from it as possible.

    So I don't believe an ability to directly counter specials are very necessary, with some experience you can "counter" them anyway.
    If you happen to take on multiple specials at once, tough luck, it can usually be difficult to handle a well coordinated strike.

    QUOTE (Trojan•Clinique @ Nov 8 2011, 08:06 PM)
    Denshin is a rather overpowered class.

    QUOTE (Lucas =) @ Jan 12 2012, 08:16 AM)
    We're currently working on making Denshin less OP.
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  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Beta Tester
    edited 8:15AM
    Denshin wrote:

    When you start climbing the learning curve you will start to notice certain behaviors in players that can actually be an indicator if that player has a special or not, when you can identify when players has a special based upon reading their behavior you'll be able to avoid most specials altogether or at the very least take as little damage from it as possible.


    Very true I forgot to mention this. Anyone who has seen me play often has heard me mention to teammates when someone most likely has a special so they don't get hit by them ( or I sadly sometimes use them to be used the special on instead of me XD ;;;; ).

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  • Major ChulainMajor Chulain Senior
    edited 8:15AM
    people still post suggestions on this forum? :S
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  • AfroamericanAfroamerican Senior
    edited 8:15AM

    people still post suggestions on this forum? :S
  • edited 8:15AM
    When the huscarl takes out his shield, a heavy stops charging his attack, the cap is obvious, skirm when he walks back and wants to get you walk towards him in a straight line. And it would make the zerker op since you can't really stop his special. Btw for the huscarl,gestir and skirm special, try using the terrain to avoid, with that i mean different hight levels. (since you can't jump and things :P)
  • SpirrwellSpirrwell That Guy That Knows Things About a Lot of Things PVKII Team, Authorized Creator
    edited December 2013
    Just one note: The Gestir and Huscarl specials can be used into the water if you press forward while doing so and is practically unavoidable and it's more lethal because of the physics of water.
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  • ThatOneBoxThatOneBox Senior
    edited 8:15AM
    it would be neat if you could use your special meter to block a special, therefore you both essentially use your specials, and continue the fight. press F while parrying and if you time it right you negate all the damage.

    sounds like fun hehe.
  • DudazeryDudazery Senior
    edited December 2013
    There is no skill or strategy in special farming. Its the most obvious thing to do in the game and takes away from the meat of the game which is skilled melee combat. Dodging specials would still be a part of the game if you have no special block meter or want to save the special meter for your own attack. I see no real reason against having this mechanic as it adds a balanced counter that takes skill to use and also has a penalty if used incorrectly. Specials also take some skill to use and only a few may have penalties (knights, captains, sharpshooters). Its simply another use of special meter meter.

    As for animation I would think of a frozen golden statue or stone statue as a simple way. You could even add a damaging effect to the person who used the special. How epic would it be if you use your special meter to block a knights special killing them? It would require good timing and actually add something to the dynamics of the game

    Im sweet potato ice cream in game and have high rank on a lot of servers like cannabis and now cannabis friendly top 5 usually (moved to italy cant play on cannabis anymore). Amongst most fights between top 10-50 rank players, its just seeing who can get to the n0o0bs faster to get a free special to kill the other higher ranking player. Im telling you that special abuse is just boring because you can kill new players 3v1 and just use your special to kill bigger threats. They have no chance except to run in fear because they know you have a special. If you think about it, specials negatively effect the game balance more than anything else in the game
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Beta Tester
    edited 8:15AM
    Dudazery wrote:

    There is no skill or strategy in special farming.


    We explained how it was.

    Its the most obvious thing to do in the game and takes away from the meat of the game which is skilled melee combat.


    Specials are part of the game and add a sense of caution and create turn-arounds. Jousting alone is not an interesting form of skilled melee combat. There are also ranged classes that exist which are not focused on "melee".

    I see no real reason against having this mechanic


    And I see no real reason for having it for what were explained in Denshin's and my posts.

    ...as it adds a balanced counter...


    Dodge, anticipate, farm before them, hit them as they try to farm.

    Specials also take some skill to use and only a few may have penalties


    While some are easier than others, it does not mean it is impossible to anticipate. The skill required to avoid/mitigate is fairly minimal if you have map awareness and watching their movements.

    Im sweet potato ice cream in game and have high rank on a lot of servers like cannabis


    Rank is not a determination of how good someone.
    Also, I had my suspicions, but I was correct in realizing this was a "Cathedral" complaining thing again. One map (ok, I'll be fair, two if you want to count "Arena") is not really a reason to do drastic changes because you do not wish to adapt or go to a different map.

    its just seeing who can get to the n0o0bs faster to get a free special to kill the other higher ranking player. Im telling you that special abuse is just boring because you can kill new players 3v1 and just use your special to kill bigger threats.


    That is strategy, if the so called "high rank" player could not counter this, they did not deserve that rank (which, again, means nothing in terms of team play which surprisingly what this game is about {shocking, I know}). I'll even give you an example. A map other than Arena/Cathedral {hell, other game modes}, there will be times when you will be the only one doing objective or only a few vs much more. Your best bet is to play smarter, and yes that includes special farming off the weaker players to use on the stronger or to chest special. This allows a possible turn-around if the less player team is smarter which makes them more deserving of the win if they pull it off.

    They have no chance except to run in fear because they know you have a special. If you think about it, specials negatively effect the game balance more than anything else in the game


    Read what I just said above about the example. Also, if they are holding their special they are losing potentially getting a second special. I've seen players hold specials even in TW to focus the enemy carrier that was carrying his team but as a result they would fall to other players because they were dead set on using it on that one enemy carrier.

    (moved to italy cant play on cannabis anymore)


    Uh, why is that? There are plenty of high ping players that play effectively because of their high ping mixed with their skill level. I remember that one guy from Japan (Sai something I think) who was tearing through NA LTS servers (I say this because I do not recall if it was Cannabis specifically).

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  • edited 8:15AM
    Yeah, other gamemodes like trinket and territory would become a lot less interesting without special or even a special blocker and again, you cannot stop the zerker. I think you wanne become to good to fast and take away the part of the game you're less good at. Just learn from the people that dodge your specials. Specials are a big part of this game and if you like playing it, you'll have to get used to them. It also gives a challange to older players, would be boring otherwise.

    And don't mind the pingbasher.
  • ThatOneBoxThatOneBox Senior
    edited January 2014
    (off topic comment real quick) koko i feel like you have something against arena and cathedral lol
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Beta Tester
    edited 8:15AM
    Boxxu1337 wrote:

    (off topic comment real quick) koko i feel like you have something against arena and cathedral lol


    Making judgments based on the same 2-3 maps isn't really a good way to see balance in a game, particularly Cathedral. That just seems--very obvious.

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  • ThatOneBoxThatOneBox Senior
    edited January 2014

    Making judgments based on the same 2-3 maps isn't really a good way to see balance in a game, particularly Cathedral. That just seems--very obvious.


    While I agree to an extent, making judgements based solely on custom maps isn't a good way to balance the game either. (Forgive me if this is not what you are doing, but it appears to be that way.) If had to say, I think this game is honestly split 33/33/33.

    33% custom/stock

    33% island

    33% LTS

    (making close enough to 100 :P)

    You hardly EVER see stock maps played (which is a shame, i really enjoy them) but they pop up from time to time on custom, or once in a while people will join the Sherwood server.

    To continue, we must be mindful of everything when taking into consideration what maps effect what balance and so forth. maybe the developers could make LTS maps function differently than the others, to appease both sides.

    EDIT: I would also like to add, that while some of us try to be mindful of all maps/gamemodes when making suggestions, if we tend to stick to one game mode then it can be difficult to remember the others when coming up with new ideas, as well, so go easy on others when viewing their opinions.

    Sometimes, it is easy to forget, when you focused only on one.
  • KOKORONOKAWARIKOKORONOKAWARI Funny Little Japanese Drawing Person Beta Tester
    edited 8:15AM
    It could very well be a map issue (which I am certain it is) more than simply a balance issue. I have always felt Cathedral and Island were not balanced by any means and be a source of frustration for many as a result, which is where "many" of these kind of posts emerge from. Arena has done better since its changes which I was glad for.

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  • ThatOneBoxThatOneBox Senior
    edited January 2014
    I agree the change to arena was nice, but i must say, it looks quite ugly. The only thing i suggest to make cathedral better would be to make the ramps (where the Armour is) a bit higher, as even crouch ducking behind them does not fully hide you from view. I feel as though Cathedral is fine as it is for the most part though. Either, in the end i do not believe the map is the issue to begin with. As was stated earlier, it's about players farming specials, and then spamming another player with them. (see: Skirmisher). I feel as though it would be certainly acceptable to add a 'Special Block' function for LTS maps. Press F while Blocking and you are immune (to specials only) for x amount of seconds. You are Also immobile. (the time may have to vary depending on which team you are, because viking specials tend to last longer than others.) As for the deal with the Bezerker, I believe it would function as it would against any others. you are immune to his swings for x amount of seconds, so therefore, you still need skill in order to avoid the beserker special. I do not think that will be a balance issue because i believe this to be a small change in the first place, and i don't believe factoring that in will make everyone flock to Bezerker because of his special.

    I understand that farming could be considered a 'tactic' but let's be honest, is generally looked down upon, and i'm sure everyone on the Cannibus Club would agree, especially farming AFK players.

    EDIT: I have come up with an alternative to 'making different game modes function differently.' Why not implement it, have it off by default, but allow server owners to turn on? No harm done, yes?
  • Ragnarr LoRagnarr Lo Senior
    edited 8:15AM
    Yea special farming is kinda lame, especially when you have the good players doing it then turning around and targeting you with the special, i approve this idea of a possible special counter block.
    ubaj.jpg
  • ThatOneBoxThatOneBox Senior
    edited 8:15AM
    I'd like to hear a developers thoughts on this. Anyone?
  • TurdsackTurdsack Senior
    edited 8:15AM
    Unfortunately almost everyone I see playing farms afk players in lts :(
    76561198043074776.png
  • ThatOneBoxThatOneBox Senior
    edited 8:15AM
    Yeah, it's a cheap lame tactic. I wonder if there is a way to disable specials....
  • SpirrwellSpirrwell That Guy That Knows Things About a Lot of Things PVKII Team, Authorized Creator
    edited January 2014
    There's no built in functionality in PVKII that I believe can disable specials, though it would make for some interesting game experience. The class scripts could be modified, or a plugin could be made. I would guess that you could set the MaxSpecial value to -1 and that may disable it, or if not, could just make it some bizarre value of 999999999 that would be like impossible to reach. As it is, the MaxSpecial values are in the 100-300 range. I believe the class that takes the longest to get a special is the HK.

    (TIP to newcomers: Sword and shield is an excellent way to gain special using shield bashes)

    Edit: I could always modify the class scripts. Even though you're technically not supposed to be able to do that... I wouldn't know how to do it in a plugin. I assume it would be modifying the MaxSpecial variable, which if I had to guess it would be something along the lines of m_iMaxSpecial, but I don't know
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  • ThufirThufir Senior
    edited 8:15AM
    special blocking would ruin the game. besides 2 equally high skilled players fighter eacher other have a higher chance of getting their special dodged than it hitting. be less predictable and you won't have a problem
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  • ThatOneBoxThatOneBox Senior
    edited January 2014
    Hashi wrote:

    special blocking would ruin the game. besides 2 equally high skilled players fighter eacher other have a higher chance of getting their special dodged than it hitting. be less predictable and you won't have a problem


    Explain how it ruins the game, if you will. Mind you, i'm really only in favor of it for LTS mode.
  • SpirrwellSpirrwell That Guy That Knows Things About a Lot of Things PVKII Team, Authorized Creator
    edited January 2014
    Boxxu1337 wrote:

    Explain how it ruins the game, if you will. Mind you, i'm really only in favor of it for LTS mode.

    That's a good point, hell, I would love not having specials in LTS at all. You know what, just for fun I'll see if setting the special meter to -1 will make it not fill.

    Edit: Nope, -1 and 0 just make for an infinite special, you can use it all the time. It'd have to be set to 999999999 or something. Then the person that gets a special would really really deserve it for all the work it would take lol. Still, an option to disable specials would be interesting.
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  • ThatOneBoxThatOneBox Senior
    edited 8:15AM

    That's a good point, hell, I would love not having specials in LTS at all. You know what, just for fun I'll see if setting the special meter to -1 will make it not fill.

    Edit: Nope, -1 and 0 just make for an infinite special, you can use it all the time. It'd have to be set to 999999999 or something. Then the person that gets a special would really really deserve it for all the work it would take lol. Still, an option to disable specials would be interesting.


    if yo ucould set the special for something high, but obtainable, that would be pretty cool. because more than likely you'll be at pushing up daisies by that point. I would still prefer special blocking over no specials though, it would make LTS much more intense than it already is.

    My dream pvk server, all stock LTS maps with friendly fire and manual parry, with the MaA released. Yes please!
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